[barfo]

Originally Posted by maxiep

I'm saying that I believe very little that comes from his mouth or that he's put in print.

Why?

Barack Obama is no different from any other politician.

So we should just put names of all the politicians in a hat and draw one at random? Since they are all the same?

barfo

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by barfo

Just reading this forum, one is exposed to a variety of crazy opinions (we may disagree on which are the crazy ones, of course). Should we all leave?

Are you actually trying to compare this internet forum to a brick-and-mortar church in the real world? A church is a place where a group of like-minded people get together once a week to sing, pray, and share their faith with each other. You invest yourself emotionally and financially in the church organization because you believe in it and support its values. Out of all the churches in Chicago, Obama chose Rev. Wright's church and stayed in it for 20 years. That tells you that his church reflects his values. If it didn't, he would have left a long time ago.

Also, when I post something that you disagree with, you DISAGREE! Obama never disagreed with his pastor. He never challenged his racist or anti-American views at all. He just kept supporting the church financially and bringing his family there to worship with him.

Is that the sort of person we want as president? One who can't bear to listen to other viewpoints?

This is just silly. If Bush were attending a church whose preacher belonged to the KKK and preached racist sermons about the horrible "black people," would you commend him for sticking with the church and listening to "other viewpoints"?

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by maxiep

The difference is there's no designated leader of this forum. This is a discussion forum where you debate ideas as equals. If this became the Blazer forum where you had to sign a pledge that you would oppose personal profit and where you had to listen for an hour per week to the "spokesperson" of this forum while they talked about the team, but also stated that white players on this team should be hated, then this would be a small forum, and not one with which I'd associate myself. And if I were here when the designated "leader" of this forum uttered those sentiments, you bet I'd tell that person off.

I lived on the South Side of Chicago. I understand why Obama allied himself with this church, and it's as craven a reason as there is. He wasn't viewed as "black enough" to be elected. Now he's presenting himself as a "uniter" who is a different kind of candidate that "transcends race".

The problem with Obama is he wants it both ways, but his lofty rhetoric doesn't jibe with his actions. He's not a transformational candidate; he's just another political hack.

Bingo!

[STOMP]

Originally Posted by maxiep

Yep, ignornance and Anti-American comments can spew from the mouth of anyone, regardless of their color. Clearly Rev. Wright agreed with those sentiments, and clearly the comments didn't bother Sen. Obama one whit, or he would have walked out. Why is this issue so difficult for people to understand?

I'll tell you what I don't understand... how do you walk out of a sermon you didn't attend? Did you miss the fact that Barak has specifically denied hearing the sort of stuff you're referring to or are you choosing to ignore that because it suits your argument?

STOMP

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by STOMP

I'll tell you what I don't understand... how do you walk out of a sermon you didn't attend? Did you miss the fact that Barak has specifically denied hearing the sort of stuff you're referring to or are you choosing to ignore that because it suits your argument?

Obama has attended that church for 20 years, and it defies logic to assume that he didn't hear his share of "controversial" (i.e. racist and anti-American) sermons during that time. Moreover, any incendiary comments that he may not have been present for he would have eventually heard about from other members. I know that when I miss a church service, my friends always tell me about anything interesting or unusual that may have been said.

Even more to the point, Obama has modified his original statement about not being at those controversial sermons to now saying he heard a number of controversial statements over the years. So it's very likely that he heard a great many racist statements, including ones that we don't even know about yet.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Obama has attended that church for 20 years, and it defies logic to assume that he didn't hear his share of "controversial" (i.e. racist and anti-American) sermons during that time. Moreover, any incendiary comments that he may not have been present for he would have eventually heard about from other members. I know that when I miss a church service, my friends always tell me about anything interesting or unusual that may have been said.

Even more to the point, Obama has modified his original statement about not being at those controversial sermons to now saying he heard a number of controversial statements over the years. So it's very likely that he heard a great many racist statements, including ones that we don't even know about yet.

It is possible that it happened infrequently, just as it's possible it happened frequently.

You also have to take into account that A: it is very possible that it made up a small % of his overall message (Wrights) and B: not everyone considers what he said to be "Anti-American", just because you do. So therefore, it might not have been taken out of context like it by a lot of people.

Taken in context, it's not as horrible as people say it is, taken out of context.

[STOMP]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Obama has attended that church for 20 years, and it defies logic to assume that he didn't hear his share of "controversial" (i.e. racist and anti-American) sermons during that time. Moreover, any incendiary comments that he may not have been present for he would have eventually heard about from other members. I know that when I miss a church service, my friends always tell me about anything interesting or unusual that may have been said.

Even more to the point, Obama has modified his original statement about not being at those controversial sermons to now saying he heard a number of controversial statements over the years. So it's very likely that he heard a great many racist statements, including ones that we don't even know about yet.

he didn't modify his "original statement" what you're referring to is from the same statement. Sorry.

Originally Posted by barfo

Just reading this forum, one is exposed to a variety of crazy opinions (we may disagree on which are the crazy ones, of course). Should we all leave? Are we such delicate little flowers that our minds are corrupted by exposure to crazy nonsense?

There are some who do leave, of course. Some people are so offended by opposing viewpoints, strongly stated, that they can't deal with it. Is that the sort of person we want as president? One who can't bear to listen to other viewpoints? Do we want a president who won't talk to [insert other country here] because they think [insert unacceptable belief system here]?

Others don't leave, but stay here to argue the points, even though we rarely, if ever, change anyone's mind. Some have said that, if Obama stayed with the church, it was his duty to change Wright's mind, or at least fight him. That, I think, would have been a silly choice for Obama. Wright was, when Obama joined the church, much older and better established. Obama was a kid trying to make his mark as a community organizer; Wright helped him. Biting the hand that feeds you is rarely a good way to achieve your goals. After Obama returned from Harvard and got elected to the Illinois senate, he might have had the power to take on Wright, but that battle would have achieved little and cost a lot. Is that who we want as President? Someone who picks his battles poorly? Someone who spends resources on minor fights where little is to be gained?

And finally, some here just read the posts, shrug, and move on without responding. I think Obama is probably like the poster who reads this post and moves on. He might well read my next post, he might even enjoy reading my posts, but he doesn't necessarily agree with anything that I say. He has his own opinions, and unless I produce a rational and convincing argument against his beliefs, he'll continue to hold his opinion even after reading mine.

exactly... personally I enjoy having my buttons pushed/having people challenge my beliefs as it stirs up thoughts on where I stand on various matters. That others prefer to have sermons/lectures/music/whatever be right in line with their thinking is fine too... for them. I find that a very boring and closed minded way of living, but to each their own.

STOMP

[dr_a2k]

It is a shame we have people arguing about whether or not Obama supports the Rev racist views. The comments by the reverend are racist and collectivist. In my opinion it shows very poor judgment on Obamas part to be apart of this church. A church is for like minded people to gather, that does not mean everyone is a racist that goes to this church, but we all would be crazy to say that none of the people in that church are not a racist and the reason why they go there is because of the collectivist preacher. Lets say however that he did not go to any services were he said anything racist, you honestly believe no people of the church talked in a racist way, or spoke of the sermons that the Rev. spoke of the last week in which Obama missed. Obama is a liar if he said he did not know these things were being spoken of, and shows he is a coward that he sat for 20 years like a lazy cow, his silence on the issues for 20 years is deafening. It is saddening people that disagree with Obama politically bash him, and people that agree with him politically try and rationalize what he does, well if your that latter congratulations you have traded personal principles for party affiliation, I hope you feel good.

Racism is a sin of the heart bottom line.

[barfo]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Are you actually trying to compare this internet forum to a brick-and-mortar church in the real world?

Compare, no. I was trying to illustrate my point with an example we are all familiar with.

A church is a place where a group of like-minded people get together once a week to sing, pray, and share their faith with each other. You invest yourself emotionally and financially in the church organization because you believe in it and support its values. Out of all the churches in Chicago, Obama chose Rev. Wright's church and stayed in it for 20 years. That tells you that his church reflects his values. If it didn't, he would have left a long time ago.

I think that is a little bit simplistic. People join churches for a variety of reasons, and stay with them for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the theology of the pastor. I think if you consider people you know, you'll realize that is the truth. Some people, in fact, go to church regularly even though they aren't religious at all.

Also, when I post something that you disagree with, you DISAGREE!

Yes. However, I don't always post a response. And, for every barfo who does respond, there are many lurkers here who disagree with you but never post.

Obama never disagreed with his pastor. He never challenged his racist or anti-American views at all.

Conjecture.

This is just silly. If Bush were attending a church whose preacher belonged to the KKK and preached racist sermons about the horrible "black people," would you commend him for sticking with the church and listening to "other viewpoints"?

I am not commending him for going to that church. I would think him a better candidate if he'd never belonged to a church at all. Same for Hillary and McCain.

All I'm saying is, if a person goes to a church and listens to a bunch of silly, irrational nonsense, it doesn't necessarily mean he or she believes it.

barfo

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by barfo

All I'm saying is, if a person goes to a church and listens to a bunch of silly, irrational nonsense, it doesn't necessarily mean he or she believes it.

You're dodging my question. You would be outraged if you found out Bush was attending a KKK church, but you're willing to excuse this same behavior from Obama. The left is collectively supporting Obama for something they would excoriate Bush over, and you know it.

[HB]

The thing is, the church is not a KKK church. And obviously Wright's comments werent suggesting that Blacks go out and destroy whites