[angrypuppy]

Originally Posted by maxiep

You're assuming the attacks are coming from just one place. Frankly, if I were Sen. Obama, I'd fear what the Clinton smear machine can do more than the Republican one.

I assumed that attacks emanated from the Clinton camp. An attack from the Republican machine would have been premature.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

I don't see how this is a smear campaign, ap. While the Muslim e-mail thing was pure BS, this white oppression message seems to be a pretty consistent thing at Trinity United. Nobody required Obama to keep attending there and nobody is requiring him to maintain his affiliation with that church now.

You can't deny that a lot of older blacks (50's and older) feel that there has been a fair amount of oppression against them. You can barely deny that there has been oppression against them.


Doesn't condone what he said (it just makes the discussion no longer seem important or valid), but there's a reason why services in predominantly black churches have a different tone or voice than those in a predominantly white church.

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by Dan

actions speak louder than words.



actions are more important to me than whatever idiotic thing their pastor spouts off about in a church.

You're right, but actions include choosing to keep going to a church where this kind of crapola is spewed on a regular basis. There's also the whole inaction question. How does a guy who says he wants to help the country overcome racial divisiveness square that platform position with continuing to attend a church that teaches a message that is all about racial division? Seems to me that a guy has an obligation to work first with the people he knows and get them to clean up their act before he can say that he's the kind of leader that this country needs to address this issue.

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by angrypuppy

I assumed that attacks emanated from the Clinton camp. An attack from the Republican machine would have been premature.

As far as I know, no attack emanated from any source...just some nutty priest who's been a long time associate of Obama's chooses to get up in front of the cameras and spout off with this anti-Hillary racist rant. Not exactly what Obama needed right at the moment.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

You're right, but actions include choosing to keep going to a church where this kind of crapola is spewed on a regular basis. There's also the whole inaction question. How does a guy who says he wants to help the country overcome racial divisiveness square that platform position with continuing to attend a church that teaches a message that is all about racial division? Seems to me that a guy has an obligation to work first with the people he knows and get them to clean up their act before he can say that he's the kind of leader that this country needs to address this issue.

There are some people who would feel that the messages my church sent out as a kid, would be offensive. In fact, members of my church left the church because of those messages, and refused to talk to the pastor.

But not everyone agree'd with his message.

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by Dan

You can't deny that a lot of older blacks (50's and older) feel that there has been a fair amount of oppression against them. You can barely deny that there has been oppression against them.


Doesn't condone what he said (it just makes the discussion no longer seem important or valid), but there's a reason why services in predominantly black churches have a different tone or voice than those in a predominantly white church.

Of course nobody can deny that there's a long and strong history of racial oppression in this country. That doesn't mean that you keep fanning the flames and teaching new generations that they're nothing but victims of the evil white man. It also doesn't mean that a guy like Obama, who wants to be the leader of Americans of all colors and ethnic groups, gets a free pass for two decades of attending and contributing to a church that feeds this kind of crap to its congregation.

Ah well, you all know my opinion on this. Nothing new here. Just another train wreck for Obama to have to deal with.

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by Dan

You can't deny that a lot of older blacks (50's and older) feel that there has been a fair amount of oppression against them. You can barely deny that there has been oppression against them. It doesn't condone what he said (it just makes the discussion no longer seem important or valid), but there's a reason why services in predominantly black churches have a different tone or voice than those in a predominantly white church.

Jews, Italians, Catholics and other minorities have been discriminated against, too, but you don't hear it as a constant theme in their religious services. Yet blacks and black pastors keep harping on slavery, racism, and oppression in order to feed their sense of grievance and explain their lot in life.

[angrypuppy]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

I don't see how this is a smear campaign, ap. While the Muslim e-mail thing was pure BS, this white oppression message seems to be a pretty consistent thing at Trinity United. Nobody required Obama to keep attending there and nobody is requiring him to maintain his affiliation with that church now.

The irony was that he was being accused of not being Christian.

He will have to distance himself by finding a new church.

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Jews, Italians, Catholics and other minorities have been discriminated against, too, but you don't hear it as a constant theme in their religious services. Yet blacks and black pastors keep harping on slavery, racism, and oppression in order to feed their sense of grievance and explain their lot in life.

Please put the words "a few" in front of blacks and black pastors. I don't think that what's going on at Trinity United Church of Christ is in any way typical of black churches in this country...which in some ways makes it worse that Obama keeps his affiliation with one that does maintain this message of racial victimization.

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by angrypuppy

The irony was that he was being accused of not being Christian.

He will have to distance himself by finding a new church.

Yeah, I got the irony part...just not seeing the smear part in this instance.

[Zybot]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Jews, Italians, Catholics and other minorities have been discriminated against, too, but you don't hear it as a constant theme in their religious services. Yet blacks and black pastors keep harping on slavery, racism, and oppression in order to feed their sense of grievance and explain their lot in life.

I think if my great-great grandparents were slaves I probably would have some disadvantages. I am not a minority and I am pissed off about slavery and racism. Do you think slavery and racism are not that big of a deal?

[angrypuppy]

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that the church issue was a smear campaign. To me, a smear campaign has to be firmly rooted in a falsehood or a gross exageration. That isn't the case.

We are facing a potential recession, and we're handicapped by deep structural problems from within our economy... Problems that will affect employment, our ability to sustain ourselves as a nation, our foreign relations, and perhaps what has in the past defined us in terms of being a land of opportunity.

Instead of addressing big issues, we're worrying about a pastor.

I better get off the soap box. I hear the swift boats coming.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Jews, Italians, Catholics and other minorities have been discriminated against, too, but you don't hear it as a constant theme in their religious services. Yet blacks and black pastors keep harping on slavery, racism, and oppression in order to feed their sense of grievance and explain their lot in life.

You never hear Jews complain about being discriminated?

Have you never watched any movie made in hollywood?

(that was part sarcasm).

BUT, correct me if I'm wrong..when were Jews, Italians and Catholics (and other minorities) slaves in the United States? When did they have laws that they could not eat at the same diners? When did they have laws against them marrying white (or hell, non black) people? When did they have people arrest and beat them for no other reason than they were ******s?

*in the United States*.

Now, before you go off half cocked, I'm only bringing that up because you seem to be ignoring that that history does play a role, whether or not you believe it should, whether or nor you are racist, owned slaves, believed it was the right thing or wrong thing or are ashamed that thats how our country treated blacks for centuries.