[maxiep]

Originally Posted by Dornado

Come on Maxiep, you're smarter than that...

I have my opinion, you have yours.

[maxiep]

Originally Posted by Dan

way to simplify (and get incorrect) the viewpoint of those who don't agree with you. bravo.

Way to speak for everyone who you believe do agree with you. Bravo.

[Hector]

Originally Posted by maxiep

No amount of information would ever change the minds of those who believe we're the cause of all the world's problems. It's the curse of being rich, free and alive all at the same time. The guilt many people feel for that circumstance has become a religion with America as the Great Satan and anyone who opposes us as the Apostles.

So American opposition to evil that America does is produced by America's richness, freedom, and aliveness. Then what motivates those wretched foreigners to oppose evil that the American government does? After all, America has a monopoly on being rich, free, and alive. If it doesn't, that takes away your motivation to be the world's policeman. In summary, how can our excess of being rich, free, and alive cause criticism of America, when countries lacking in those qualities (according to conservatives) produce the same criticism of America?

You contradict yourself. Is the cause our guilt or their jealousy?

[Hector]

Originally Posted by DaRizzle

1...
2...
3...
4...
5...

The same things have been done by American forces in this current war, according to many, many articles over the last 5 years. Although now, when peaceful demonstrations are shot up, snipers don't shoot everyone from rooftops, just the leaders.

Iraqis live in the same Sounds of Silence fear now as before. Sometime we might debate whether Iraqis are so Kurd-like rebellious that such tyranny is required to govern them. After all, those before Saddam, Saddam, and those after Saddam (America) have had to use the same methods to govern the country.

[DaRizzle]

Originally Posted by Hector

The same things have been done by American forces in this current war, according to many, many articles over the last 5 years.

Really? Same things? According to many? I dont buy it.

Originally Posted by Hector

Although now, when peaceful demonstrations are shot up, snipers don't shoot everyone from rooftops, just the leaders.

So then its not the same thing...99.9% less death at similar event

Originally Posted by Hector

Iraqis live in the same Sounds of Silence fear now as before. Sometime we might debate whether Iraqis are so Kurd-like rebellious that such tyranny is required to govern them. After all, those before Saddam, Saddam, and those after Saddam (America) have had to use the same methods to govern the country.

Are you freakin serious??? To your first sentence here, go ahead and tell my family over there that. It's sooo bad that they have left the country...and came back because they wanted to. Now in the 80's and the Iran/Iraq war I had a cousin that left and stayed with us in Los Angeles for the duration of the war so he wouldnt have to die for nothing.

Two your second sentence (underlined)...Im not here to make enemies but that is a ****ing ridiculous statement to say the least. They are humans over there, not monkeys. Maybe if every country would stop ****ing with them since the dawn of time they wouldnt have to be so on edge.

[Ed O]

Originally Posted by DaRizzle

Two your second sentence (underlined)...Im not here to make enemies but that is a ****ing ridiculous statement to say the least. They are humans over there, not monkeys. Maybe if every country would stop ****ing with them since the dawn of time they wouldnt have to be so on edge.

Haven't you seen the posts by several of the anti-war people here?

Middle Easterners are different. They think differently. They will always hate us.

C'mon! Pay attention, man!

Ed O.

[Zybot]

Originally Posted by DaRizzle

My dad is 100% Iraqi American. He came over to the US about 35 years ago. My family is literally one of the first four founding families for the city of Baghdad. I have been to Iraq twice, both after the first Gulf War but obviously before this second war.

My uncle who has lived his entire life in Baghdad say things are getting significantly better. He says Al-Qaeda are completely gone. The Ba'ath party is in total dissaray. The rest of the extremists are doing small damage but with no real purpose or significance in regards to the big picture. My cousin a pharmacist in Baghdad came to the US for one month for more training to help the problems over there more.

My uncle actually said my dad should probably come over and visit in a year, thats how good its becoming over there according to him. Obviously "good" is a relative term. "Good" to them means nobody is dying, small businesses are being productive, and there is running water and electricity.

I know Talkhard is gonna jump all over this one...sorry guys

Thanks for the post. I don't care who's right or who's wrong. I hope that this is not just an isolated example. If it is, you should feel fortunate that your family is living in an area that is stable. I still don't think it justifies the war, but I think it is a good sign that the US might be able to reduce their military presence. Keep us updated.

[mook]

I think most of America has turned the page on Iraq. watching maxie and Maris call each other names is sooooo 2005.

invading Iraq was a questionable idea, badly executed, but the disaster has been mitigated by Bush's suddenly pretty good leadership on the surge. we're all happy to see Iraqis regaining some semblance of order, but nobody has much confidence that it'll last. and if it falls apart again, I doubt we'll have the resources or motivation to clean it up.

I don't think a lot of the anti-war crowd is invested in failure, mostly because failure has long since been achieved and they've been vindicated. ("success" being the quick and easy victory and the stable democracy and the WMD destruction and the punishment for 911 that was sold to us at the outset.) nobody is going to convincingly point at Obama and say, "Ah ha! You were wrong! The war was totally worth it! We have built democracy! We have found WMD! We have punished the evil-doers from Iraq who flew into the World Trade Center! We did it all in less than a year or two and for under $100 billion!" we failed to win the war we were sold.

I don't think a lot of the pro-war crowd is deeply invested in success, or else they would've called for a draft and higher taxes to pay for a bigger army a long time ago. and they would've leveled with everyone that this was a multi-trillion, multi-decade business, right from the outset. for so long they wanted to win on the cheap, which is another way of saying they weren't willing to risk telling America what true nation-building victory would likely cost.

I want Iraqis to be happy. any civil human does, and it's nonsense to suggest that people who don't like this war wish the Iraqis were dead. it's like saying that anyone who wishes our freeways to have speeds over 35 mph want thousands of Americans to die. we don't want that, but we just want other things more.

I want universal health care and a good education for my kids more than I want a stabilized, Iran-free Iraq (and more than I want to save tens of thousands of lives by lowering our freeway speeds to 35mph, for that matter). call me (and a growing majority of Americans) selfish. but we've been stuck in a war we never bought in to for too long to feel any different, no matter how well we're doing over there at the moment.

anyway, on a more personal note, I'm really glad things are looking up for your uncle, DaRizzle. tell him as long as he's rebuilding, he should get in on the ground floor of being a Blazers fan.

[DaRizzle]

Originally Posted by mook

anyway, on a more personal note, I'm really glad things are looking up for your uncle, DaRizzle. tell him as long as he's rebuilding, he should get in on the ground floor of being a Blazers fan.

He isnt THAT desperate

[jokeaward]

Originally Posted by nikolokolus

I want our presence in that country reduced but not because I'm some hippy liberal commie, but rather I think financially it could submarine our country in the coming years -- to me it's a trade-off (and a very delicate balance): "paying" (with lives and borrowing vast sums of money) to secure access to the second largest oil reserves in the world, or leave it (the Middle East and Iraq) alone and be at the whim of other governments for our energy needs? I'm not sure, but I somehow doubt that the trillions of debt we're racking up is ever going to be offset by this improved access. Whatever happens I really want to see our country start moving away from a carbon based economy and start to really put our historic ingenuity and resources into improving energy efficiency, solar, wind, geothermal, and other means of energy production.

If things are quieting down that makes me very happy to hear, and I couldn't care less what the ramifications are for domestic politics, and whether or not a turd sandwich or a douche gets elected this November (obligatory South Park reference -- sorry); I think I can tolerate either Obama or McCain, as I think neither are completely crazy, incompetent, or stupid.

I think if they just admitted that our lifestyle is based on oil and they're going to get it even with reduced morals, they'd have a stronger argument than all the lies and democracy.

We're always for democracy... unless the elected party or person displeases us.

[jokeaward]

Originally Posted by Ed O

Haven't you seen the posts by several of the anti-war people here?

Middle Easterners are different. They think differently. They will always hate us.

You're confused. He said they think differently, therefore trying to force them to conform to our belief system and political structure will be painful if not impossible. Even we have trouble with it...

If you were coerced by an occupying force into following Sharia law, would you be comfortable with that? Your mother or sister? Or a caste system and you are an untouchable?

Some cultures want a strong-man, a dictator. A "Man of God." I'm not sure how many Iraqis do but there is a large segment.

[barfo]

Originally Posted by mook

I think most of America has turned the page on Iraq. watching maxie and Maris call each other names is sooooo 2005.

invading Iraq was a questionable idea, badly executed, but the disaster has been mitigated by Bush's suddenly pretty good leadership on the surge. we're all happy to see Iraqis regaining some semblance of order, but nobody has much confidence that it'll last. and if it falls apart again, I doubt we'll have the resources or motivation to clean it up.

I don't think a lot of the anti-war crowd is invested in failure, mostly because failure has long since been achieved and they've been vindicated. ("success" being the quick and easy victory and the stable democracy and the WMD destruction and the punishment for 911 that was sold to us at the outset.) nobody is going to convincingly point at Obama and say, "Ah ha! You were wrong! The war was totally worth it! We have built democracy! We have found WMD! We have punished the evil-doers from Iraq who flew into the World Trade Center! We did it all in less than a year or two and for under $100 billion!" we failed to win the war we were sold.

I don't think a lot of the pro-war crowd is deeply invested in success, or else they would've called for a draft and higher taxes to pay for a bigger army a long time ago. and they would've leveled with everyone that this was a multi-trillion, multi-decade business, right from the outset. for so long they wanted to win on the cheap, which is another way of saying they weren't willing to risk telling America what true nation-building victory would likely cost.

I want Iraqis to be happy. any civil human does, and it's nonsense to suggest that people who don't like this war wish the Iraqis were dead. it's like saying that anyone who wishes our freeways to have speeds over 35 mph want thousands of Americans to die. we don't want that, but we just want other things more.

I want universal health care and a good education for my kids more than I want a stabilized, Iran-free Iraq (and more than I want to save tens of thousands of lives by lowering our freeway speeds to 35mph, for that matter). call me (and a growing majority of Americans) selfish. but we've been stuck in a war we never bought in to for too long to feel any different, no matter how well we're doing over there at the moment.

anyway, on a more personal note, I'm really glad things are looking up for your uncle, DaRizzle. tell him as long as he's rebuilding, he should get in on the ground floor of being a Blazers fan.

I'm barfo, and I approve of this post.

barfo