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Target · 08-20-2004, 11:40 PM

It's amazing how riled up the democrats get when someone uses their own tactics on them.

60 vets. Some have purple hearts. Some were pow's. Some are Texans, some aren't. Some are Republicans, some are Democrats.

All are liars?

No one can doubt their motive. It's as clear as day. They don't believe Kerry should be president.

Should they be vilified for that? Should they be censored for speaking out for what they believe and what they know first hand?

I hope to see their critics held to the same standard.

08-21-2004, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Target!
It's amazing how riled up the democrats get when someone uses their own tactics on them.

60 vets. Some have purple hearts. Some were pow's. Some are Texans, some aren't. Some are Republicans, some are Democrats.

All are liars?

No one can doubt their motive. It's as clear as day. They don't believe Kerry should be president.

Should they be vilified for that? Should they be censored for speaking out for what they believe and what they know first hand?

I hope to see their critics held to the same standard.

Why not just stick to basketbal topics?

Ed O · 08-21-2004, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Air America!

Why not just stick to basketbal topics?

This is not a basketball thread. OT threads are allowed. If you don't want to participate in any given thread, then don't.

PM me if you need clarification. Thanks.

Ed O.

Perfection · 08-21-2004, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Target!
It's amazing how riled up the democrats get when someone uses their own tactics on them.

60 vets. Some have purple hearts. Some were pow's. Some are Texans, some aren't. Some are Republicans, some are Democrats.

All are liars?

No one can doubt their motive. It's as clear as day. They don't believe Kerry should be president.

Should they be vilified for that? Should they be censored for speaking out for what they believe and what they know first hand?

I hope to see their critics held to the same standard.

OMG. Do you actually believe this? The democrats don't need to use these kind of tactics...and they shouldn't be credited to them. Rather, Democrats win when people THINK. I find it ironic because it always seems to be the Republicans who come out firing first with the smut...and it makes it difficult for the democrats because if they are man enough not to retaliate, they take a hit in the polls becuase these untruths aren't dealt with.

In contrast, if Kerry fights back, as he is doing now (thankfully), the story gets spread in the media, which is another win for the Republicans. Its one of those situations where, regardless if the story is true or complete BS, once people hear it, it sticks and makes a lasting impression (on the common, uniformed voter)

In this campaign the Republicans have the advantage of having the candidate in office, because it is much more frowned upon to heavily criticize the President then it is just a candidate. (Which is why I love comedians like John Stewart who have the balls to do it).

But I digress. You do realize that Mr. Karl Rove (AKA The Master of Smut and Dirty campaigning) has been running the strings behind the Republican party for quite some time.

Perhaps some of the Swift Boat veterans are democrats....but I haven't heard that before. What I've heard about the group is that they are ENTIRELY partisan and funded by Republican backers.

I mean, there are people that support Kerry....like the guy he saved...who by the way is a Republican. Perhaps you should read that information at Fact Check, as they consistantly do a pretty good job of distinguishing the facts from the untruths from both the campaigns...

Talkhard...did it ever register that perhaps you don't look at it from every angle...don't have all the insider facts....and maybe are spreading propaganda yourself?

I don't mean that as a personal attack or anything, its just that you seem to start all of these threads that are so PRO Bush and that lack significant substance that it makes me wonder if you really try to be an objective viewer of the world around you or if you mind is completly made up and are just trying to convince people to jump on your bandwagon...whether there is a legit reason or not.

One thing that I know if that I pride myself on my objectivity and critical thinking....my critical thinking skills are what allow me to be such a great student/person. And I know that I wouldn't be pushing information if I weren't convinced of it....after looking at it very critically and under a suspicious light.

Of course you don't have to do the same...but I think its a pretty beneficial habit to have.

08-21-2004, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed O!

This is not a basketball thread. OT threads are allowed. If you don't want to participate in any given thread, then don't.

PM me if you need clarification. Thanks.

Ed O.

Go DUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

s a b a s 11 · 08-21-2004, 02:20 AM

Another article that should be involved.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/po...n/20swift.html

Quote:

...A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.

Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.

The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements.

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good man."

In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."

George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats."

"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group..."

Stuart

**STOMP** · 08-21-2004, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Target!
It's amazing how riled up the democrats get when someone uses their own tactics on them.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ironic

Sort of funny to be accused of being too riled up by someone who seemingly either starts every other political thread or at least can't let one pass by without trolling florescent pink power bait rhetoric in hopes of provoking a reaction. Classic pot/kettle dynamic accusing the left of being the originator of the bleep that the right has been serving up for years. Ever hear of a guy named Newt?

I'm 37 years old and have voted in every Presidential election that I've been eligible to. I've never voted for a Democrat, but I will be this time. I doubt I'm an anomaly. Besides opposing Bush on more then a couple of actual issues, I've consistently found the tone and tactics from his side (Karl Rove etc), in both this and the last election, to be the most underhanded/cynical I've seen. It's been proven very effective to fund minions to go negative, while pretending (at least initially) to be outside the fray. Why care if it's eventually shown to be your $$$ pulling the strings behind the scenes, as long as the initial impression is made/damage is done?

A. Because eventually the people catch on. Fool me once...

Smearing the opponent seems to be W's bread 'n butter political technique (which so nicely compliments the meatish product 'n cheeze whiz sect that backs him in the bible belt as long as he continues to regularly publically pimp his supposive religious beliefs). A lot of people get turned off by this sort of stuff, which might help explain why such a low percentage of Americans voted in the last Presidential election (if I recall correctly, it was the lowest turnout ever percentage wise). It's my guess that American voters are much more motivated this time around as W has effectively polarized and riled up much of the country.

I definitely disagree that the Swift Boat group's motives are "clear as day." It seems to be unfolding as a pretty muddy concoction of politics, doublespeak, and actual offense that some took to Kerry's postwar actions. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it turned out that back room deals were cut/promises were made to some of these guys to contradict their earlier sworn statements/actions and official military records. We'll see... this thing is sure to unravel further.

STOMP

Masbee · 08-22-2004, 12:23 PM

This story keeps getting better and better.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...erry&printer=1

Swift boat officer, long silent, backs Kerry regarding events that led to Silver Star.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ug21&printer=1

Washington Post investigation states that the accounts of both sides surrounding the events that led to Kerry's Bronze Star are questionable.

Quote:

An investigation by The Washington Post into what happened that day suggests that both sides have withheld information from the public record and provided an incomplete, and sometimes inaccurate, picture of what took place. But although Kerry's accusers have succeeded in raising doubts about his war record, they have failed to come up with sufficient evidence to prove him a liar.

**HOWIE** · 08-23-2004, 12:31 AM

I was surfing the net tonight and found proof that George W. Bush did in fact serve the Texas Air National Guard.

Iwatas · 08-23-2004, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Perfection!

One thing that I know if that I pride myself on my objectivity and critical thinking....my critical thinking skills are what allow me to be such a great student/person.

Don't forget your modesty -- that also allows you to be such a great person!

Iwatas · 08-23-2004, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Perfection!

OMG. Do you actually believe this? The democrats don't need to use these kind of tactics...and they shouldn't be credited to them. Rather, Democrats win when people THINK.

I find this very interesting. I know that for years, it has been a given that the Democrats are the party of intellectuals, and that the Republicans are the party of racist boorish white men.

But I would think that the recent revival of the right wing would put paid to this impression.

Consider: the most dynamic policy ideas are being put forward by the Right, not the Left. Democrats who used to pioneer such bold new ideas as the space program, war on communism in Vietnam, LBJ's War on Poverty and Great Society, of civil rights and feminism, are now reduced to no new ideas at all. The fountain of ideas which was marxism and even European-style redistribution of wealth have been thoroughly discredited -- so discredited that politicians no longer urge that the United States become more like the USSR, or even France. The Democratic party seems stuck playing the role of the "conservative" -- of trying to preserve the status quo. No new ideas were advanced at the Democratic convention. No bold initiatives have come out of the party in a very long time, and the big changes of the Clinton years in welfare and a balanced budget were forced by the Right. Even some of the newest ideas such as Gay Marriage and defending partial-birth abortions are avoided like the plague by the democratic leadership in the Senate and by John Kerry.

On the Right, thinkers abound. The entire "Neoconservative" movement was founded by Democrats who started thinking, not by old elitist conservatives. Leaders in this area were JFK voters and followers, and they consider themselves promoting the same things JFK promoted when he was President -- low taxes, promotion of democracy, military strength. And now the Right is advocating some very bold ideas -- the idea that America's values of liberty and freedom should be available to all peoples even if they were born outside the borders of the United States. Promotion (by some) of more immigration and libertarian principles. Fundamental changes in health care to make it possible for market reforms to improve service and reduce costs. Market reform of Social Security so those paying in can choose to invest their payments in the stock market. Massive tort reform to keep lawyers from crippling medicine and business. And a healthy argument about replacing the IRS and the nutty tax system with a flat tax or a sales tax.

You may like or hate these ideas. But clearly the Right is overflowing with ideas. And they did not come out of thin air. They came out of think-tanks and a very healthy exchange of opinions and information. In short, the policy vitality of the Republicans today suggests that they, not the Democrats, are the party of thinkers.

Consider: the knee-jerk reaction is that guns cause crime. And then John Lott did a very thorough study, showing that the ownership of guns (carry permits) in the United States dramatically *reduce* violent crime. This study has been mirrored here in the UK, where gun ownership and crime have been shown to be in inverse proportion to each other, all the way back back to the 17th century. Here in the UK it is assumed that guns are pure evil, while the crime rate has skyrocketed (the UK has been on a crime spree since handguns were banned, despite many more police officers. One is 6 times more likely to be mugged in London than in New York). But the intellectual concensus in the United States is coalescing around the conclusion that guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens work well to prevent crime; the main question is precisely how much. The Left, OTOH, has been left totally flat-footed. Look at the "Assault Weapon" ban which expires about now -- it is happening almost entirely in silences, because the thinkers now see that the Right was correct on this issue. Anti-gun positions are now based on emotion, and pro-gun positions are based on intellectual argument. Which is the party of thinkers?

Consider: the party of change WRT public schools is the Republican party. Republicans support charter schools, school vouchers, home schooling, even a selection of public schools -- a vibrant smorgasbord of options to choose from, under the basic idea that competition between schools will make a better product, much as it does for any other product or service.

The Democrats are not the party of ideas or thinkers. Dominated by the Teacher's unions (was it 10% or 40% of delegates to the Convention were public school employees of one kind or another?), the Democrats are the party of the Status Quo. Year after year, public schools get worse, and more and more money is spent on education, and schools get worse and more $$ ... the Democrats do not want any new ideas. They have dug in to defend the status quo, as failed and elitist and pathetic as it is. All they will advocate is more money, something which has been tried and failed for the past 40 years. No Thinking here.

On the Left, the main campaign platform on foreign policy is that the US should make sure the French and Germans are happy. While on the Right, the platform is that the United States should spread democracy and freedom from tyrants, alone if necessary. To me, it is clear that the Democratic position is not the position of the intellectually active, but of the person who believes Jacques Chirac is the right guy to determine America's foreign policy.

So I urge you to critically evaluate my claims, and ask yourself: which is the party of those who think?

Iwatas · 08-23-2004, 04:51 AM

Anyone who has said the Swift Boat Vets have an axe to grind are right. By their own admission, they are as focused on the post-war John Kerry as on the man who collected three purple hearts without spending a day in the hospital.

Want proof?

http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/sellout.mpg

This is not just about Vietnam. It is about very old wounds inflicted by John Kerry on the men fighting in Vietnam.

And, whether funded by Bush supporters or not, the damage is done by someone who is surely NOT part of the "vast right-wing conspiracy".

http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesui...it_mccain.html

Quote:

Despite today’s allegations in the New York Times that the group is a front for
Bush political operatives, the harshest words for Kerry in the ad come from
Paul Galanti, a former POW who served as Virginia campaign chairman for
Bush rival Sen. John McCain (R.) and who was also an active member of
Veterans for Mark Warner (the Democratic governor of Virginia) during
Warner’s 2001 gubernatorial race.

**STOMP** · 08-23-2004, 09:28 AM

Another vet's opinion...

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

Colin Powell's autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148

STOMP

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