[Sambonius]

Originally Posted by Ed O

It's "not fair"?

What person reading this board doesn't know that Zach and NVE weren't playing tonight? Do you think anyone?

That's not what you were suggesting. You were stating that it was sad we couldn't beat a team missing three of its players. Sad is the reason for your post, suggesting the team is in a sad state when we lose to a team without 3 good players. I think it would only be right to suggest a PART of the reason we are in such a sad state is because our best player (Zach Randolph) and probably our best defensive player did not play. Or is it not?

Is it possible that some didn't know that those three guys from the Wizards weren't playing, especially since the game evidently wasn't broadcast in the Portland area?

Well, the best player you suggested is their 3rd best player, he is the only one of serious significance. I think it is also possible that many didn't know Theo Ratliff didn't play, but you didn't suggest him missing because you wanted to pack more punch into the meaning of your post.

I don't know what's unfair about it... but if you'd like to amend my statement so that it would have been "more competitive" if we had all our guys healthy and the Wizards had three of their top six or seven players: go ahead. It's equally, and perhaps MORE of, a sad statement about the current level of our team.

Aahh, and finally you don't dumb it down. You show your true meaning, to make the team look bad. Zach Randolph is the most significant player missing from the game, Jamison second, one can argue Van Excel/ Ratliff/Haywood, and Hayes would be the least. I don't see sad, I see understandable. If you're going to try and discredit the team and its performance, at least state the injuries to BOTH teams, not just one. Maybe then it will make your post most credible.

[Sambonius]

Originally Posted by hasoos

That being said, I don't think Portlands problem was scoring, which is both of the players you listed, strengths. Portlands problem is getting stops. Neither one of the players you listed would have helped there, in fact I would have to guess, it would have been an even more lopsided score, since both are poor defenders.

Given Zach Randolph's performances in the past against the Wizards, I think it is entirely possible he could have significantly changed the outcome of the game, considering we only lost by 8. Antawn Jamison nor Hayes are good defenders but their presence would have significantly effected the game. Plus you're leaving out Ratliff. I'm not saying we would have won or we would have lost with full rosters, I'm just saying that if you want to take shots at the team's performance then at least do so without leaving significant issues out to one team and not the other.

[Ed O]

Originally Posted by Sambonius

That's not what you were suggesting. You were stating that it was sad we couldn't beat a team missing three of its players. Sad is the reason for your post, suggesting the team is in a sad state when we lose to a team without 3 good players. I think it would only be right to suggest a PART of the reason we are in such a sad state is because our best player (Zach Randolph) and probably our best defensive player did not play. Or is it not?

I wouldn't say it's that big of a deal. Neither one of the players are going to play the rest of the year, so woulda-shoulda's aren't very relevant.

We COULD look and ponder how well the Blazers would have done tonight if they still had Rasheed instead of SAR, but we didn't because it's not relevant.

Well, the best player you suggested is their 3rd best player, he is the only one of serious significance.

Are you serious? Haywood has started 64 games for the team, is a defensive interior presence and shoots 56% from the floor. Hayes is a guy who's one of their best perimeter shooters and plays close to 30 minutes a game. Those guys aren't of serious significance?

I think it is also possible that many didn't know Theo Ratliff didn't play, but you didn't suggest him missing because you wanted to pack more punch into the meaning of your post.

I didn't want to pack "punch" into anything. I don't get why some people have to read agendas into everything that some people type.

I didn't post that Theo didn't play for the same reason that I didn't mention that DA didn't play: I don't think that either of them would have made a lick of difference.

Aahh, and finally you don't dumb it down. You show your true meaning, to make the team look bad. Zach Randolph is the most significant player missing from the game, Jamison second, one can argue Van Excel/ Ratliff/Haywood, and Hayes would be the least. I don't see sad, I see understandable. If you're going to try and discredit the team and its performance, at least state the injuries to BOTH teams, not just one. Maybe then it will make your post most credible.

*yawn*

To be honest, I don't post to be credible generally, and I don't post to be credible by YOUR standards in the least.

I shared my thoughts on the game. If you disagree with me, that's cool. Calling me out for some perceived agenda or slight on the current team is just silly and a waste of both of our time.

Back to the comparisons: the Wizards have recently lost all three players to injury. Portland has been playing without NVE and Zach for weeks now. The Wizards should get all three back before the end of the year. Portland will get neither of their guys back this season (and almost certainly never, in the case of Nick).

"Sad" and "understandable" aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not surprised that the team lost tonight, and I'm not surprised that they weren't really competitive while they lost. The team just isn't very good. That goes to the "sad" part.

If you don't think it's sad that the team just got its teeth kicked in at home by an understaffed mid-level Eastern conference team playing on the second night of a back-to-back on the road, then I don't know what to say.

Ed O.

[Sambonius]

Originally Posted by Ed O

I wouldn't say it's that big of a deal. Neither one of the players are going to play the rest of the year, so woulda-shoulda's aren't very relevant.

From what I understand Theo Ratliff WILL be back this season, so it is relevant.

Are you serious? Haywood has started 64 games for the team, is a defensive interior presence and shoots 56% from the floor. Hayes is a guy who's one of their best perimeter shooters and plays close to 30 minutes a game. Those guys aren't of serious significance?

Haye's shoots 39% from the field, his departure was no more significant than Derek Anderson's departure, not to mention his replacement filled in quite adequately.

I didn't want to pack "punch" into anything. I don't get why some people have to read agendas into everything that some people type.

There was no reading agendas, it was the way you put it out there.

I didn't post that Theo didn't play for the same reason that I didn't mention that DA didn't play: I don't think that either of them would have made a lick of difference.

Derek Anderson wouldn't have made a difference? Funny, the last game he played he put up 18 points and 7 assists and shot higher than 50% from the field. Theo Ratliff sure would have made a difference, as Hasoos stated prior to this post, we were having trouble getting stops on the defensive end, Theo would have at least had some effect on that end of the court.

*yawn*

To be honest, I don't post to be credible generally, and I don't post to be credible by YOUR standards in the least.

It's not about my standards, it's about making a post and stating ALL the facts on the injuries of both teams. Ignoring one teams' injury problems weakens the argument.

[quote]
Back to the comparisons: the Wizards have recently lost all three players to injury. Portland has been playing without NVE and Zach for weeks now. The Wizards should get all three back before the end of the year. Portland will get neither of their guys back this season (and almost certainly never, in the case of Nick).

Hayes has been on the injured list for almost a month. Jamison has at least been on the injured list, I think the chance of not knowing if those guys are playing or DA and Theo are playing, it is less likely that we know DA/Theo aren't playing, simply because they aren't on the IL.

"Sad" and "understandable" aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not surprised that the team lost tonight, and I'm not surprised that they weren't really competitive while they lost. The team just isn't very good. That goes to the "sad" part.

Agreed that their play wasn't good, but it isn't so sad they lost when considering they were missing their best player and a number of other effective players. Just tell the whole story next time, don't do the whole FOX News thing.

[hasoos]

Originally Posted by Sambonius

Given Zach Randolph's performances in the past against the Wizards, I think it is entirely possible he could have significantly changed the outcome of the game, considering we only lost by 8. Antawn Jamison nor Hayes are good defenders but their presence would have significantly effected the game. Plus you're leaving out Ratliff. I'm not saying we would have won or we would have lost with full rosters, I'm just saying that if you want to take shots at the team's performance then at least do so without leaving significant issues out to one team and not the other.

I think you are missing the point. Portland has been scoring enough points for the most part, in all its games, to win. Portland has not been stopping any of its competition from scoring big points, in ANY of the games. Those two players you listed, would not have helped them defensively. Randolph is a wash in my opinion with Shareef offensively, he would not have made that big of a difference. Just because he has had big games against the wizards in the past, is not a reason to assume he would tonight. Portland offensive production is fine right now, and probably better at any time then when Zbo and his offensive stagnation post game which brings the Blazers half court game to a grinding halt, ever has been. Nick only plays well in half the games he is in, if that, and is streaky at best. He is slow as hell when it comes to defending, and there is a good chance Arenas would have got 40 plus if Nick was defending him instead of Telfair. Assuming Nick would have put up better statistics then Telfairs, when Sebastien put up 17 points and 6 assist on over 50% shooting, is a reach at best. He would have probably faired a little better then Damon at shooting guard, because Larry Hughes would have schooled either one of them and kept them on their heels all game long. Its hard to get your offensive production giong when you are physically overmatched.

[Ed O]

Originally Posted by Sambonius

From what I understand Theo Ratliff WILL be back this season, so it is relevant.

I said "neither" referring to two players: NVE and Zach. I apologize for being unclear.

Haye's shoots 39% from the field, his departure was no more significant than Derek Anderson's departure, not to mention his replacement filled in quite adequately.

That's bogus on a couple fronts:

1. Ask Wizards fans how they feel about Hayes. I guarantee you they won't feel the same way Blazers fans feel about DA.

2. Jared Jeffries didn't do anything tonight. Maybe you don't know much about the Wizards, but that's the guy who Hayes battles for playing time.

There was no reading agendas, it was the way you put it out there.

Ah. That makes no sense. Sorry.

Derek Anderson wouldn't have made a difference? Funny, the last game he played he put up 18 points and 7 assists and shot higher than 50% from the field.

He would have played that way again, rather than the way he's played the REST of the year?

And if he HAD played that well, would he would have been better than Frahm?

Theo Ratliff sure would have made a difference, as Hasoos stated prior to this post, we were having trouble getting stops on the defensive end, Theo would have at least had some effect on that end of the court.

I doubt it. Joel was contesting a lot of shots, which is all that Theo does. The Wizards were simply hitting open jumpers, going over Joel, or hitting the offensive boards. Theo wouldn't have had much of an impact.

It's not about my standards, it's about making a post and stating ALL the facts on the injuries of both teams. Ignoring one teams' injury problems weakens the argument.

Is that the way the board works now? Full disclosure for every post, irrespective of whether the audience knows the background or not?

Should I lay the foundation that the two teams were playing basketball tonight? Or that it was played in Portland OREGON?

After all, we need to state all the facts, right? Or is that just about injuries? Shall I call up the teams and see which players have bumps and bruises, to make sure that you are entirely satisfied with my unbiased posts?

Hayes has been on the injured list for almost a month. Jamison has at least been on the injured list, I think the chance of not knowing if those guys are playing or DA and Theo are playing, it is less likely that we know DA/Theo aren't playing, simply because they aren't on the IL.

But the thing is this: DA and Theo aren't any good. They are both bench players. Hayes is a bench player for the Wizards, but Haywood and Jamison are each starters. You're expecting me to compare apples and oranges for some reason, and I'm just not going to do it.

Agreed that their play wasn't good, but it isn't so sad they lost when considering they were missing their best player and a number of other effective players. Just tell the whole story next time, don't do the whole FOX News thing.

Telling the whole story is impossible. Giving my opinion on a game I watched is something that I enjoy doing and I'd bet that 90% of the people I care about on this board appreciate me doing. You are NOT a person that I particularly care about, and not a person whose opinions I value highly, so I don't really care about your opinions of my writing style nor of my approach to posting.

In any event, the Blazers are now 4-19 in their last 23 games. Are you seriously, seriously saying that's not a sad state of affairs?

There are investments being made, and someday the team might be better off for this time, but that doesn't make it any less sad in the present.

Ed O.

[zagsfan20]

Ahhhh yes, the good old back and forth battle of wits, trying to beat the other into submission......These are hard to end because usually everybody wants the last word, but eventually one will get carpal tunnel and have to retire for the night.....

[MAS RipCity]

I'm not going to bother going back and finding the quote, but someone said DA would have made a differenace...yea a negative differance. Outlaw is already better then our fragile friend

[Sambonius]

[quote=Ed O]I said "neither" referring to two players: NVE and Zach. I apologize for being unclear.

That's bogus on a couple fronts:

1. Ask Wizards fans how they feel about Hayes. I guarantee you they won't feel the same way Blazers fans feel about DA.

Doesn't matter how the fans feel. The majority of Blazer fans felt Rasheed needed to be traded, and the majority of Wizards fans love Hayes, does that mean Hayes is a better player? I don't like Derek Anderson but he can contribute more to a basketball team than Damon, just my opinion. His stats are nearly identical to Hayes' stats, so it isn't very bogus.

2. Jared Jeffries didn't do anything tonight. Maybe you don't know much about the Wizards, but that's the guy who Hayes battles for playing time.

Well Jeffries did score Hayes' season average. Maybe YOU don't know much about the Wizards considering Jeffries isn't the only guy Hayes' battles time with, Laron Profit is there too and he exceeded Hayes' season average for points tonight. Hayes and Profit can play the two position as well, Jeffries isn't the only guy that subs for Hayes'.

Ah. That makes no sense. Sorry.

Right.

He would have played that way again, rather than the way he's played the REST of the year?

I don't know, maybe you should get a time machine and a great doctor to find out? I'm not suggesting he would play great or not, I'm simply stating he would have made a difference to some degree, at least on the defensive end.

And if he HAD played that well, would he would have been better than Frahm?

Good question, let me go ask him.

I doubt it. Joel was contesting a lot of shots, which is all that Theo does. The Wizards were simply hitting open jumpers, going over Joel, or hitting the offensive boards. Theo wouldn't have had much of an impact.

Wizards hitting open jumpers? Perhaps over the midget backcourt consisting of Damon? Don't you think Derek Anderson could have limited that?

Is that the way the board works now? Full disclosure for every post, irrespective of whether the audience knows the background or not?

*snoar*

Should I lay the foundation that the two teams were playing basketball tonight? Or that it was played in Portland OREGON?

Jesus apparently forgives.

After all, we need to state all the facts, right? Or is that just about injuries? Shall I call up the teams and see which players have bumps and bruises, to make sure that you are entirely satisfied with my unbiased posts?

I think anyone reading your post would see it is biased, they may not admit it though, considering you are a large part of this board. You have to go out of your way to state Jamison, who's been on the IL for 2 or 3 weeks, Hayes, who has also been on the IL(nearly a month), and Haywood has bee on the IL and it is sad that we lost to that team without those guys but not mentioning we were missing several players is indeed biased. Then you go and say you were just letting people who didn't know they weren't playing, that they weren't playing! What about Derek? Theo? At least those guys WEREN'T on the IL, so chances are more people wouldn't know they were missing from the game than the others you mentioned. Get it?

But the thing is this: DA and Theo aren't any good. They are both bench players. Hayes is a bench player for the Wizards, but Haywood and Jamison are each starters. You're expecting me to compare apples and oranges for some reason, and I'm just not going to do it.

Shareef was a bench player too, would that mean his overall value and impact to a game is less than say Kwame Brown? Just because someone is a bench player, it doesn't mean there worth or impact is less than any starter in the league.

Telling the whole story is impossible. Giving my opinion on a game I watched is something that I enjoy doing and I'd bet that 90% of the people I care about on this board appreciate me doing. You are NOT a person that I particularly care about, and not a person whose opinions I value highly, so I don't really care about your opinions of my writing style nor of my approach to posting.

That should be a Hallmark card in some odd way. I'm actually relieved that you don't care about me, I think it would be kind of strange if you did. Internet affection is weird to me. That is all irrelevant unfortunately, because it's a message board on the internet, not a gentlemen's club. Don't take it all so seriously and type a Bible's worth of defensive material, it really is quite juvenile.

In any event, the Blazers are now 4-19 in their last 23 games. Are you seriously, seriously saying that's not a sad state of affairs?

Call me crazy but I don't see it as sad. It's what some call rebuilding. If it really was sad then I wouldn't look forward to the future. There are many reasons why this is not sad. Sebastian Telfair, Outlaw, Viktor, Sergei, Darius, Zach, Joel, and our future 1st round pick. Far from sad, imo.

There are investments being made, and someday the team might be better off for this time, but that doesn't make it any less sad in the present.

To me, the best case scenario is the Blazers continue to lose while we visibly see our young guys improve. The lower pick and the development of such prospect like Telfair, Outlaw, Khryapa. Call me retarded, but I'm damn excited about this team.

[BCH]

Quick summary from a Wizards fan.

Jeffries battles Hayes for PT, Laron is a sometime sub, gathering DNP-CDs when people are healthy. Damon Brown has been getting some of the time Hayes would have played as well.

Hayes is sorely missed because he stretches the defense, allowing the Wizards to run the offense they haven't run much since he went down, and Jamison started coming up gimp.

Without Hayes and Jamison to stretch things, the Wizards are a two man team of Arenas and Hughes. Without Haywood, one of their better rebounders, the best offensive rebounding team in the league, mostly due to missed jumpers and not necessarily skill, are missing a key guy to help in that department. They are also missing that shot blocking.

This is not an indictment of Portland. I just want to let you know how Hayes and Haywood fit in to the Wizards. They are key guys, less so that Jamison obviously, but key regardless. Without Jamison, this is pretty much the same Wizards team that stunk last year.