Masbee

Jason Kidd, Vince Carter and Baron Davis were (probably) all available in the not distant past.

How would a starting backcourt of:

Davis (or Kidd) & Vince Carter

look with Miles, Zach and Joel?

Playoff bound if you ask me.

If you want to go the lower cost route I will take Antonio Daniels/Bonzi Wells starting over Telfair/????you gotta be kidding me. Telfair still should be coming off the bench.

Why do you repeatedly ask who the better players are supposed to be when the Blazer management and ownership has painted themselves into this corner? I have disagreed or been baffled by move after move.

And in fact, I posted at the very beginning of the Patterson era that the Blazers would be making a HUGE mistake if they listened to the crap coming out of the Oregonian and the Ron Tonkins of the world to guide their personnel decisions. I said trying to go in three different directions at once causes you to end up nowhere.

You can't keep throwing in MY FACE demands for instant solutions when it has taken years of miscalculations and bad choices to get to this point.

My posts in this thread were a response to the notion expressed by others that the team will be BETTER because they have jettisoned proven veteran talent, not replaced it with comparable (or better) veteran talent, and thus the ranking of the team by ESPN is way too low.

I find that argument to be unsupported by facts and history.

And I don't see what pointing that out has to do with a throwdown challenge of "well, what would YOU have done that would have been better?". You do understand they are separate issues and thoughts, right?

Just because I point out we haven't actually NET improved the roster for the uncomming season, doesn't tell you weather I agree or disagree with the moves, the direction or the longer-term future of the team.

sa1177

You also must remember that this is a business not just a basketball team. Winning games puts folks in seats but the suggestions you make wouldn't have won enough games to do that IMO.

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Dan

not this summer, not this summer, and not this summer.

They weren't free agents.

who's to say that we would've been able to make that trade? Why act as tho that's a fact?
maybe according to you, but according to people who are more knowledgable than you or I are, he's improved a lot over the summer. (Yes, I know, thats A: typical of a response of someone who's drinking kool-aid and B: said every year).
I'm asking for people to come up with realistic replacements for the vets we had, and instead of dealing with dream-land trade scenarios that never happened, come up with replacements for what (and here's the kicker) *DID* happen.

So saying we should've/could've had Kidd, Carter and/or Baron Davis really is worthless. Thats not what happened, and it's pointless to bring it up.

How about, instead, talk about how the team could've signed for *THIS* summer, since thats what we're dealing with?

there's such a thing as rushing to judgement. Let the team play a year with the team as is (the real first team with little or not negative trader bob issues on it.

and you can't keep throwing in "my face" demands for instant success when it can take a couple years for results to be obvious.

You can't have it both ways.

history does not = same result every time.

No team had won 3 straight home games in the NBA finals (the road team)..yet Detroit did.

in 90, the Pistons hadn't won in Portland for 20+ games..and yet they won all 3 games.

No team had won game 7 of the conference finals in 20+ years a couple years ago, and the Lakers did.

History is a reference point, not a photo-copy duplicate.
yes, but continually *****ing and moaning that they gave up on vets and not accepting that they weren't good for the *good* of the team (and also not coming up with vets that the team could've replaced them with) gets us nowhere.

yes, the team won't be as good as they could be, but the vets weren't going to make enough of a difference (read: the team would still suck) to justify keeping them.

what we think of as "improved" is based 100% on our ill-informed opinions, and our short attention spans. We refuse to be cognizant of the fact that what we're ***** and moan about, might look silly to people who actually know what they're talking about.

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A Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything".

when will the loss of life end?

The world respects the power of our example, not an example of our power.

I'd like to say I made this, but I didn't

Dan

I think they'll be better than last year by about 8-10 games. MOstly due to coaching, and partly due to the fact they're getting players who should know their roles.

__________________
A Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything".

when will the loss of life end?

The world respects the power of our example, not an example of our power.

I'd like to say I made this, but I didn't

Dan

if three of our best players are Damon, DA and Shareef (or NVE in that group), than we're not as good as we should be, and those guys should be cut so we can see if the younger guys are better.

I think the team will be better than last year, BECAUSE they lost "four of our top players".

They may have helped us win games, but they also helped us *lose* games.

Just like when Kiki was traded for Byron Irvin, if you have someone in the wings to take someones place who'll be better (Jerome from that point in their respective careers onward, WAS better), you can still improve.

__________________
A Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything".

when will the loss of life end?

The world respects the power of our example, not an example of our power.

I'd like to say I made this, but I didn't

Masbee

You can't set the rules and arbitraily limit it to "this summer". What are you gonna do? Hold your breath until you turn blue if I mention moves that had to be made last season again? That is just beyond silly. Mega silly. Super silly. Just knock it off already.


They are examples because two of them in fact were traded. Am I using Shaq and T-Mac as examples? No. Those guys were traded too.

You ask what COULD, let me repeat as it is key, YOU DEMAND WHAT COULD have been done to avoid this current roster destined to lose a lot of games and fairly get ranked #26 by ESPN. Then you shoot it down by saying it couldn't have possibly happened because of the fact that it didn't.

Well there you go. Another DEAD END Hap conversation. If you already know the answer why bother asking the question? Clearly, in your mind, every move the Blazers make is the best move that could have been made. And if they didn't make a particular move, then it wasn't possible. Isn't that convenient? Makes analysis pretty easy doesn't it?

Give me 5 examples of players at the same age of Telfair who have been top 15 for their position. Give me 2 examples that are point guards. Then maybe we can talk. I have ALREADY addressed this point.

Decades of history and the example of thousands of players backs up my position. What backs up yours?


Huh?

We still have Ruben Patterson. We still have Zach. Remember Zach sucker-punched Ruben. The trade for Miles was considered a very Trader Bob esq type trade at the time. If fact, I am certain Bob would have gleefully pulled the trigger on that deal. Some consider Miles a negative. The early and fat extensions for Zach, Theo and Miles was very much in the style of Bob. There is still plenty of "Bob" smeared on this team - whatever that is supposed to mean anyway.


It has been 2 full years already.

Two years already gone by.

There is virtually no chance that the team will be very good this season. That is another season gone by.

Three full years. Three years gone by. And where are we then?

No cap space. If Joel has a good year, a year to remember, a year where the Blazer fans look forward to resigning him, the odds of keeping him are very slim.

So, in the 4th year, with no cap space, losing Joel, how much improvement could we possibly see in the 4th season?

You can take your "demands for instant success" line and put it back in your pocket. It's crap.


Strawman, meet Hap.

I don't continually ***** and moan about giving up on vets.

I occaisionally (look at my post count) ***** and moan about the poor plan, the massive cost-cutting, the contradictory plan elements, the shifting sands of the planning, the poor execution and reactionary rather than proactive nature of the management.

That's different. Maybe a little too layered and complicated for some.

I wanted the team to strike in a bold direction and pursue that objective. There is no guarantee a bold objective can be achieved. But you have a chance. When you plan is doomed from the start because the objectives are contradictory, you have almost no chance of success - and if you did it would be due to dumb luck.

They could have become the "Bad Boys" of the West and played up their image WWF style. Keep Sheed and Bonzi and go for it.

Or, they could have purged these guys in trades for future picks and/or youth.

Or, they could have set themselves up to trade for a couple of Star players on the move. A dozen star players have moved or been in heavy play the last 2 years.

They half-heartedly tried rebuilding on the fly. It cost Allen a bundle and didn't succeed on the floor, so he pulled the plug. But, they snagged average players making huge bucks. They needed to either - stay committed to flipping average, but overpaid veterans, or hold out for a star player for that salary slot.

Then they went young, but not very agressively, as they were trying to save money too. So we have lots of prospects, but no sure things, no blue-chippers. And the best picks we will get will be our own from losing, losing and losing some more.

THAT's what I ***** about.

You can't tell me to fix this problem because the team two years later still doesn't have much flexibility. And that it is is because of the decisions they made in the past that I didn't understand at the time. You and others said, they have their reasons. It is all part of a solid plan. IF they had a solid plan, their execution has been poor. IF their execution has been solid, the plan or plans have been junk.

I don't have a problem with the idea of going young. But if you do it - DO IT. Stockpile picks. Make room. Dive into the lotto with your picks and other teams. We should have flipped more of our talent into lotto picks. You have to strive to get your mitts on a stud (like a Dwight Howard, Chris Bosch, Dwane Wade, Amare or of course LeBron). If you don't give yourself a good shot at snagging one, it is a wasted effort. Telfair and Webster might be good players someday, but they aren't likely good enough to make years of losing worthwhile.

You can call me ill-informed if you like. And it may be true that I might look silly.

But, I am not the group that declared it my plan to improve character, reduce payroll and maintain a winning tradition all at the same time.

History has proved me to be quite informed about the realities of the world and the ones who espoused that plan to have all the egg on their face - thus being the silly looking ones.

BlayZa

what were those stats in the last 25ish games last year when they turned the team over to the young guys? its somewhere in the forum but i hope the person that pointed it out can help me

we seem to be wavering a bit off the topic here - its about last seasons placings vs predicting the upcoming seasons end placings. - not about who we could have signed , who we personally would have signed etc - these are all moot as none of them happened and we are where we are.

i still cant understand the addition by subraction argument in regards to wins/loses when the 4 key personel loses equated to so much production and their replacements have been ho-hum to say the most.

the only key addition has been the coach.

and hap , damon - reef - da - nick were 4 of our best players during the year , yes it was that 'bad' but if you think that was bad - hold tight this season...

i think it was a good idea for the team to cut the ties with the people that left , it was important to the blazer brand - thats the emotional part BUT talent and production wise they are leaving huge holes which will be harder to fill than most people suspect.

blake , dixon , smith - hope springs eternal

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Dan

why can't I set the "limit" to this last summer? thats the summer we lost "4 vets".
they were also players who, in a nutshell, could pick and choose where they played.

so it's not the same.
so, setting up unrealistic circumstances is a valid arguing tactic?

have I ever said that "every move" the blazers make is the best move?

But to continually harp on things that are out of our hands, is insane. Move on, the team didn't trade for Carter, Kidd or Baron Davis. What they DID do, and what we know we can argue about factually, is the fact that they didn't keep 4 vets.

Not sure whats the point of trying to counter that, because I don't recall saying that Telfair would be a "top 15" for their position.

Parker was pretty good at a young age, as was Marbury too. And Lebron was too, and Carmello. Kobe wasn't too bad in his 2nd year either.
well, I'm not sure how to respond to that. It seems to me that since it never happened before, it'll never happen period.
Ruben isn't someone I like on the team. Zach punched Ruben back when trader bob was running things..I think.

As for the trade for miles being "very trader bob", the problems that miles has had aren't on par with the problems the bad trader bob trades had.

well, for starters, rushing into labling what has been "2 years" to blame nash for things, is odd. This is really the first year that Nash has been able to build a team with players he's mostly picked.

where would we be with the players he traded? not good. Maybe better than we are, but not good enough to justify keeping them.

who knows? We don't know how Travis will mature this season. He might have a really good year, and make us not worry so much about Joel leaving. We don't know.

What if Joel doesn't have a good year, and doesn't get any offers? would people complain that Nash re-signed Joel?
you're right, your demands for instant success are crap.
sometimes people can't see the forrest for the tree's.
yah, me dumb.
Just as we don't know that the team would've been good with the potential trades that might have happened, we don't know that this team has no "studs" in the waiting.
yah, that would've worked.
kinda like they did?
or they could groom their own players and trade for some.

blah blah blah blah..you done?

look, there's certain things fans refuse to accept sometimes. For starters, the GM and the team actually does know a WHOLE lot more about who's a good player, than we do. We can sit here and act like we know that they could've traded for someone, when we don't actually know that. We can sit here and act like a player that was rude to management, personal, fans, and other players, should've stayed because we believe he was a difference maker..and we can act like nothing good will ever come of things because we need things now now now now now now now now!!!

but at least admit that we're just fooling ourselves.

__________________
A Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything".

when will the loss of life end?

The world respects the power of our example, not an example of our power.

I'd like to say I made this, but I didn't

Utherhimo

da? what a joke people are acting like he is a god I question if anyone actually watched him play it was brutal.

damon? dribblemire enough said

sar? injured plus never wanted to be here, big loss rigghthttt

nve? oh is a god now that he is somewhere else? played just above da's level and was a cancer crying on the bench

the blazers have veteran leadership and mayb ebetter quality than last year too! The blazers will be way better than last year with a win total around 35-40 wins thanks to coach Nate being a better coach and running plays on either side of the court.

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