Storyteller

Did you all catch this?

Robinson gets an extension

I have to say that I'm surprised. The Pistons are one of the top teams in the East, they will probably get a top 5 pick in the draft (courtesy of the Grizzlies), and they had cap room this summer to go out and get a FA. I'm not sure that the last is true any longer.

Their team salary looked to be about $30 million - before re-signing Hamilton. Let's say he gets $5 million (Almost their whole team will be making $5 million next year - Williamson, Billups, even Wallace only makes $5.5) and figure $2 million for the draft pick. That would have left $4-5 million that they could have used THEN could have used the MLE after that. Now they've got Cliffy and might be barely under the cap - meaning they'll have to sign a minimum salary player or two before they can use the MLE.

Here's my question - in this day and age of teams fearing the luxury tax and thus being slow to sign FA's, is there not a better player than Cliff that the Pistons could have got for the same salary this summer? Apparently they don't think so.

BTW, do you all remember Cliffy as a rookie having to guard the Admiral in the playoffs? And doing a pretty good job of it? Those were the days when I was convinced that Cliff was going to be a superstar.....

Masbee

Ok. Based on my understanding of the cap stuff, it works like this:

If Uncle Cliffy had NOT been extended, the Pistons had $31.1 million in guaranteed contracts lined up for the summer.
http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/detroit.htm

I seem to think the recent guesses for the salary cap will put it at appx. $41 - $42million this summer.

This would have given the Pistons as much as $10 million to blow on a free agent like Jason Kidd, Jermaine O'Neal, Elton Brand, Jason Terry, Gary Payton, or Tim Duncan. But in order to make a run at one of these exciting players they would have to renounce all of their free agents: Rip Hamilton, Jon Barry, Clifford Robinson, plus others not important. If you don't renounce your Free Agent they count against your cap using their last salary (plus an imputed raise). Additionally they would have to trade their draft picks for future year’s picks. Otherwise the players taken with the picks count against the cap at the rookie scale even before their contracts are signed.

If you renounce Free Agents and create cap room, you lose the right to the MLE for that year. So any FA's that were cut to create the cap room could only be resigned with leftover cap room or at minimum salary.

Detroit looked at the exciting FA list and said:

"Tim Duncan is never coming to Detroit. He likes the warm. He is happy in San Antonio anyway, and he is very loyal."

"Jason Kidd will either stay in New Jersey and get more money from them than anyone else can pay him, or if he plays for less money it will be to play with a premier big man. We don't have one."

"Jermaine O'Neal is very unlikely to leave Indiana. Been no indication he can be had."

"Elton Brand is great, but we already have a hardworking, if undersized PF, whose best attribute is great offensive rebounding. Don't need 2. And Brand is RFA. Clippers might just match our offer, then we would be stuck."

"Jason Terry. Uhh. Not a franchise player you lose 3 free agents over. Game similar in many ways to Rips. Jason wants to stay in Atlanta anyway and he is RFA."

"Gary Payton. He will either stay with his old coach and get paid too much, or will go to Portland and get paid too much, or will go to the Lakers for less money. He would use us as a bargaining chip and then sign somewhere else. Not a good fit for us anyway. Gary is aging and we have Billips and Atkins inked to long-term deals."

Detroit is happy with Rip Hamilton and wants to sign him up long-term. They don't really have a shot at a free agent who would be better than Rip or help the team more. If they had planned to renounce only Clifford and Jon Barry, they MAYBE would have had a little more room than the MLE, but might not have. And draft picks might have put them in a position to be $1mil under - no mans land - not enough cap room to sign anybody - under the cap causing the loss of the MLE. By signing the extension with Clifford, the Pistons will be above the cap. They will have the MLE to try and snag one of the second-tier FAs that gets lost in the shuffle this summer. They can freely use their draft picks to bring in rookies. They can re-sign Rip and Jon Barry.

Being under the cap is only a great thing if you have a LOT of room. $10million isn’t enough to do anything good with. Especially if you lose a very desirable FA like Rip creating that room.

Storyteller

Masbee -

Your numbers pretty much jive with mine. Except you forgot the first round pick - that counts against the cap, too, since the contract is guaranteed.

Here's the deal - I think the Pistons will extend Hamilton, too. That's why I made the supposition above about him getting $5 million. That would leave them with $4-5 million.

So, it really comes down to this - sign Cliffy now with that money, or wait until the summer comes to see if any better FA's would be willing to sign for that money. Either way, they would end up going over the cap (by signing minimum players if nothing else) and then have the MLE if they want it.

What this move tells me is that Detroit feels that Robinson is better for them than any potential FA. That's just surprising to me - especially given that they (IMO) are one of the most attractive places for a FA to sign, at least in the East. This because they are young, improving, they have a good coach, and that draft pick should add even more to their talent base. This in addition to the fact that they are already one of the elite teams in the East.

For example, they could have made a run at someone like Juwan Howard and perhaps even offer him slightly more than the MLE.

Brian

Excellent discussion guys I myself was a little taken back by the extension they gave to Uncle Cliffy. He is still decent for his age but he seems to be running out of gas. I personally think that Detroit should have waited till after the playoffs before they extended uncle cliffy's contract. He has been everything but impressive in big games for the pistons.

talman

As Blazer fans we know this ALL too well!

FB

Excellent summary of his entire career...bravo!

__________________
I could jack up threes like that too, Mo. I'll work for cheap.

Masbee

I didn't forget about the draft picks. Re-read the post.

The Piston would only have $4 - $5 million cap room if they had renounced BOTH Clifford and Jon Barry and traded their 1st round picks for future picks. And I think Detroit will have 2 1st rounders this year.

Also, I don't think they will get Rip for $5million per. He is going to get $6 or $7million from them. He is their leading scoring by a large margin. He will get more than Billips. Thus, they don't have a legit shot at having MORE room than the MLE.

Put all that together and you see why they are better off doing what they did, namely:

Keep Clifford, who is a solid defender, which makes him a better role player than a younger player trying to make a name for themself and who can't defend as well. He also knows how to score. He doesn't rebound, dissapears in the playoffs, and is getting old. But, they only re-signed him for 2 years. He should be perfect coming off the bench - just not during the playoffs :;

Bring in a rookie this year, not later. The bench badly needs a young talent infusion after the blown Rodney White pick.

Retain the MLE and look to pick up a solid, proven scorer to add to the rotation, if not this summer, next.

Who could they get this summer with the MLE?

They could use a scoring on the front line to compliment Ben Wallace.
They could use a legit, proven scorer to go with Rip and Chauncey.
They could use anybody that can rebound well for their position.

Nesterovic, Coleman, PJ Brown, Elden Campbell, Juwan Howard are possibles. There aren't any interesting, proven scorers at the 1-3 spots they likely could get. That makes retaining Rip all the more essential. Any of those big guys has good and bad points, but none are worth rearranging the roster so you can outbid another team by a few million.

Storyteller

You're right - I read right past that part of your post without it settling in. However, why would the Pistons even think about trading the high pick? Just for a future draft pick? Why trade (probably) a top-five pick for one that could easily be out of the lottery next year? I think we're on the same page here - renouncing that draft pick via trade is pretty much out of the question.

Also, I believe that Sacramento gets Detroit's pick as a result of the Dickau trade.


Sure they do. Or rather, they did. Take the $31 million, add $2 million for the draft pick and then add $3.6 million for the qualifying offer to Hamilton. That leaves them with (probably) $5-6 million in cap space. Throw that money Howard's way (for example), then give Hamilton the bigger, longer deal (whether $5 million or more like $7 million in the first year) and they are now over the cap. Now if they've drafted a swing player (highly likely given this year's draft), use the MLE on Campbell or another big man and BOOM - you have a much deeper team (IMO) and are still under $50 million team salary.

And even if you can't get any FA's to sign, I have to believe that Cliffy would still be around for the same deal he just signed for. Who's going to give him more than the MLE? In my mind, it just leaves more options open. But it's a moot point now - they've committed themselves to Robinson and are left with the MLE.

Minstrel

With that $5-6 million they could have cleared without extending Robinson, I think they had another exciting opportunity that's been overlooked...offering $6 million, starting salary, to Gilbert Arenas, with all the 10% increases to follow. It could have amounted to a substantial deal.

Certainly the Warriors could not have matched it, since they will be over the cap and thus could only have matched up to their MLE, which is lower.

Thus, the only possibility is that some other team with even more cap room comes up an offer larger than $6 million in Year One. Further, one would think he'd like to join a contending team. The only contending team with more cap room will be the Spurs, IIRC, and they have bigger game in mind.

Gil Arenas and Rip Hamilton would have made a rather scintillating backcourt. And, as SoCal points out, even if that fails, it's not like C-Rob isn't likely to be there for a similar deal later in the offseason.

__________________
You'll never live like common people
You'll never do what common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
And dance and drink and screw
Because there's nothing else to do.

Terrible

How many more DUI's do ya think Uncle Cliffy can get before he retires? How does this guy get to the games by cab?

Brian

Uncle Cliffy can't stay out of trouble I don't know how many of you caught it but last summer a lady from the Detroit area accused him of giving her herpes.

Detroit News