[Gym Rat]

I wanted to get a response from RipCityJB... here is what I posted:

Originally posted by RipCityJB!

Yeah, 4th best record in the league.....20 years in a row in the play-offs....go get 'em Oregonian.

RipCityJB-
I think folks in Portland have become jaded. They haven't experienced not making it to the playoffs in 20 years. I was in Houston for the two championships and times were great!!! A couple of years later, they didn't even make the playoffs. It was tough to watch the Rockets NOT make the playoffs. It wasn't that long ago that the Lakers didn't make the playoffs. And, what if you were a Bulls fan - spoiled by 6 championships and look at what they have now! Sometimes perspective is necessary. When was the last time the Blazers had a losing season?

That said, it is a shame that the largest payroll in the league isn't winning championships. I think it is a experiment gone bad. In Portland, you have an owner willing to risk loads of money to win it all. In this case, I believe the lesson learned is money cannot buy everything, ie - a championship, unless they prove me wrong this season. It cannot buy the desire to win, hustle, to give 100% all the time, heck, it can't even buy good citizens. What the Blazers haven't found is the right mix of money, chemistry and leadership - but it certainly isn't from lack of trying.

Someone prove me wrong on this - who on the current roster has had a BIG season after signing one of the huge contracts? Don't we typically see stronger performances in contract years? After the contract is signed - what is their motivation? It should come from within...

OK, jumping off the soap box here. Thoughts?

[ABM]

Yeah, there's a lot of truth to that.

Still, IMO, Whitsitt screwed up when he over-reacted to that fateful plyoff loss in 2000. Never would have acquired Kemp, Davis, Schrempf, Strickland, etc.

Had he not done that.......oh, well, who cares......................

Back on topic...Yes, we as Blazer hans are fat, dumb, and always wanting to be happy.

BTW, gotta hand it to that Bulls board over there. A pitiful team, yet they're still scorching the baords. Says a lot about them - as fans.

[mook]

Actually, Sheed has had some good seasons since signing his big contract here. Can't think of anybody else, but then this team has never had a guy since Drexler who had 24+ ppg--it can be hard to show huge improvement on a team where stats traditionally aren't jaw-dropping for anybody.

[Saxon_guy]

Blazer Outsider, there's A LOT of truth to that indeed. Really well said and enjoyed reading that. It makes us all think twice about our Blazers and the winning years we have.

[RipCityJB]

Well said Outsider. I don't for a minute condone the inconsistent play and attitudes of guys like Bonzi or Sheed....so I don't want to sound like an apologist for them.....but the alternative is a heck of a lot uglier. Having grown up in New Jersey as a follower of the Nets (I won't say fan) I am amused by all of the Blazer faithful who have no idea what it is like to win 20 or 30 games a year for many, many years. ....and looking back over the last decade or so what choices did the Blazers have? After the title runs of the early '90's they could have gone into rebuilding mode like Boston, Detroit, etc did...and in the process sink to the bottom for several years (look at the Bulls more recently)....with no guarantee of ever getting back in contention (look at Cleveland, Denver, Golden State...perpetual rebuilding)....or do what the Blazers have done....rebuild "on the fly" without lottery picks by taking chances on talented players with checkered pasts. They got Sheed for next to nothing....Bonzi for next to nothing....Rider for next to nothing (and parlayed him into Derek Anderson)........the Blazers have sold their soul to keep winning. Does it open them up to criticism? Sure. Will a Rasheed and Bonzi led team have a legit shot at winning a title? Probably not...but in 25 or so other cases in the NBA the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence.

[Dan]

Originally posted by <b>RipCityJB</b>!
Well said Outsider. I don't for a minute condone the inconsistent play and attitudes of guys like Bonzi or Sheed....so I don't want to sound like an apologist for them.....but the alternative is a heck of a lot uglier. Having grown up in New Jersey as a follower of the Nets (I won't say fan) I am amused by all of the Blazer faithful who have no idea what it is like to win 20 or 30 games a year for many, many years.

amen. Anyone who complains about how the blazers seasons have gone, and how that relates to complaining as a fan of the team, imho has no clue. Sure, it's not perfect, but the fact that for 28 STRAIGHT years the Blazers have won AT LEAST 37 games a year. There are some teams that barely win 37 games a year PERIOD.

I'd love to win titles year in and year out, but lets be real here. If thats the main criteria for being a fan, there are 22 teams who have wasted their lives as fans over the last 23 years
.

....and looking back over the last decade or so what choices did the Blazers have? After the title runs of the early '90's they could have gone into rebuilding mode like Boston, Detroit, etc did...and in the process sink to the bottom for several years (look at the Bulls more recently)....with no guarantee of ever getting back in contention (look at Cleveland, Denver, Golden State...perpetual rebuilding)....or do what the Blazers have done....rebuild "on the fly" without lottery picks by taking chances on talented players with checkered pasts. They got Sheed for next to nothing....Bonzi for next to nothing....Rider for next to nothing (and parlayed him into Derek Anderson)........the Blazers have sold their soul to keep winning. Does it open them up to criticism? Sure. Will a Rasheed and Bonzi led team have a legit shot at winning a title? Probably not...but in 25 or so other cases in the NBA the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence.

Thats one thing that just boggles my mind. Sure, I'd love it if we had won the title in 2000. But lets be real here. 7 teams have won titles since 1980. LA (9) Boston (3) Chicago (6) Detroit (2) Houston (2) Philly (1) and San Antonio (1).

It's even worse since 1992. 4 teams have won titles (Chicago, Houston, San Antonio and LA). and 2 of those teams have won 9 of those freaking titles! SO we don't have it *that* bad.

[Gym Rat]

Originally posted by <b>RipCityJB</b>!
Well said Outsider. I don't for a minute condone the inconsistent play and attitudes of guys like Bonzi or Sheed....so I don't want to sound like an apologist for them.....but the alternative is a heck of a lot uglier. Having grown up in New Jersey as a follower of the Nets (I won't say fan) I am amused by all of the Blazer faithful who have no idea what it is like to win 20 or 30 games a year for many, many years. ....and looking back over the last decade or so what choices did the Blazers have? After the title runs of the early '90's they could have gone into rebuilding mode like Boston, Detroit, etc did...and in the process sink to the bottom for several years (look at the Bulls more recently)....with no guarantee of ever getting back in contention (look at Cleveland, Denver, Golden State...perpetual rebuilding)....or do what the Blazers have done....rebuild "on the fly" without lottery picks by taking chances on talented players with checkered pasts. They got Sheed for next to nothing....Bonzi for next to nothing....Rider for next to nothing (and parlayed him into Derek Anderson)........the Blazers have sold their soul to keep winning. Does it open them up to criticism? Sure. Will a Rasheed and Bonzi led team have a legit shot at winning a title? Probably not...but in 25 or so other cases in the NBA the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence.

Exactly. And you have to give Allen and Whitsitt credit for trying - and maybe they have learned the lesson that money can't buy everything. It takes money, leadership, chemistry and something I forgot to mention earlier - HEART. At least they tried.

The next few years will be interesting. This board will be an interesting place if they do decide to blow this team up and don't make the playoffs and rebuild from the bottom up. Strike that - I think this will be a dull place because the fans will be bord and will not know how to deal with it.

I give those Bulls fans credit for continuing to post and stay behind their team.

[Dan]

Originally posted by <b>Blazer Outsider</b>!

I give those Bulls fans credit for continuing to post and stay behind their team.

I wouldn't mind them missing the playoffs and starting over..that way losing to the lakers in the playoffs won't hurt as much...if we ain't in it!

[RipCityJB]

Also Outsider, I wanted to add.....unfortunately in the NBA money doesn't equal championships....or we'd have several! It doesn't hurt to have the Benjamins....but it's not everything. In recent years a small list of teams have rode on the backs of superstars to titles (Olajuwon, Jordan, Duncan, Kobe/Shaq)....and in the NBA no amount of money can just go out and buy the special few that can do that. Paul Allen has tried....he's come close....but no cigar. It's easy to criticize the Blazers for throwing so much money around and not getting the desired end result, but it's his money and it sure beats following a team that cares more about the bottom line than the win column.

Maybe some day all the planets will align and we'll get a mid level payroll, players that are all great guys and a title to boot.......until then, 4th best record in the league will have to suffice.

[Gym Rat]

Originally posted by <b>RipCityJB</b>!
Also Outsider, I wanted to add.....unfortunately in the NBA money doesn't equal championships....or we'd have several! It doesn't hurt to have the Benjamins....but it's not everything. In recent years a small list of teams have rode on the backs of superstars to titles (Olajuwon, Jordan, Duncan, Kobe/Shaq)....and in the NBA no amount of money can just go out and buy the special few that can do that. Paul Allen has tried....he's come close....but no cigar. It's easy to criticize the Blazers for throwing so much money around and not getting the desired end result, but it's his money and it sure beats following a team that cares more about the bottom line than the win column.

Maybe some day all the planets will align and we'll get a mid level payroll, players that are all great guys and a title to boot.......until then, 4th best record in the league will have to suffice.

Well said!

[Trader Ed]

Well said is right...

It has to hurt if we do not win the title this year, and having to shell out about $60 mill in luxury tax for the teams to divide amongst themselves.

Chemistry is highly underrated. This is why I am a strong believer in a coach or GM who actually played the game. A team with chemistry, desire, and can play well togther can beat a team with all the talent in the world. Buying them does not make it work either.

Any given team can beat any given team any given day syndrome.

[Terrible]

I guess there are two totally different ways of looking at this Blazer team over the last three years. One way is to think, hey they've made the playoffs for the last 30 years and that isn't bad? Right! They've brought certain nights of entertainment like the Dallas game last year, right? This team also has the best fans even including guys like Hap!

Now another way to look at it, is this is a team that has not been properally motivated to be a "great team" over the last five years. It's not about money or fans that's for sure, so what is it that makes this team quit every other game and end most of their seasons of late just coasting? I believe the problem with Portland starts with the attitude of the owner on down to the players " this organizations attitude" coddles! We have great player that just don't challenge themselves. Now if it was just one player like Sheed, than the thought could be maybe Sheed doesn't want it, but we've seen this same half assed play by Bonzi and DA and even Pip from time to time. This is a team that see's no urgency and a franchise that agrees with that overrall attitude. The way I look at it is if Paul Allen took this team as serioulsy as he did creating his company with Bill, this Blazer team would have atleast one championship in the last three years. I would go as far to say that Kobe if he was a Blazer might not be the player he is today cause this organization would make him lazy. Winning teams on any level expect it from the fans to the groundkeepers. Portland I don't think as a city or a team really expects to win it all, they are just happy competing. If and when Portland decides that they want to be the best, once it gets that feeling it's really hard to let go of and it makes you work that much harder. Great team know that and it show with their attitudes and heart!

IF you read the NY Times or the Boston papers or the LA papers they call their teams out when they fart around on the court, they do the same for the players individually and the coach is also free game. Success is expected. Ask a LA fan what they expect of their Lakers this year, chamionship even at six place isn't far off in their minds. Ask the same of a Portland fan and the response might honestly be "making it out of the first round of the playoffs, if we are lucky, home court would be a bonus".

It all come down to attitude something that I think Portland needs to change as a whole! That means the city, the owners, the PR people and most importantly the freaking PLAYERS! This does not meant that I expect a ring every year from the Blazers I don't ,but it does mean I shouldn't be able to see them quit on the court the way we have.

[Gym Rat]

Terrible - you make some valid points. Did you read the second part of my original post? I would like your thoughts on this.

That said, it is a shame that the largest payroll in the league isn't winning championships. I think it is a experiment gone bad. In Portland, you have an owner willing to risk loads of money to win it all. In this case, I believe the lesson learned is money cannot buy everything, ie - a championship, unless they prove me wrong this season. It cannot buy the desire to win, hustle, to give 100% all the time, heck, it can't even buy good citizens. What the Blazers haven't found is the right mix of money, chemistry and leadership - but it certainly isn't from lack of trying. Someone prove me wrong on this - who on the current roster has had a BIG season after signing one of the huge contracts? Don't we typically see stronger performances in contract years? After the contract is signed - what is their motivation? It should come from within...

In my opinion, the experiment failed. But it takes time to undo what it took years to build. They need to find and obtain the players that are motivated... which is easier said than done.

The Oregonian calling out the team or the managment isn't going to do any good. It will just create a national media stir and the Blazers seem to perform better when they are gliding comfortably under the national media attention.

[Terrible]

Blazer Outsider, the last part of your post is where we begin to disagree. In my eyes I see the Oregonian as a weak paper that focuses on every other papers highlights, including our own teams. The Blazers are not called out for their poor play but rather their poor off the court antics and resumes of years past. The local paper should attack Sheed not for his temper but for his lack of desire in the paint. Just calling him lack luster isn't enough "BONE LAZY" are the words that should be used whenever Sheed plays like Walker all game and never establishes inside position where he could be so succesful. The same should be brought up on Bonzi, I don't give a rip if he's given Cheeks the hard stare as long as he can dribble the ball down the court without getting it stolen. The Oregonian and the national media would rather discuss anything but real hoops it seems. What a player did at a party, what he smoked , who he screwed, who cares? Can he dribble the freaking ball? Post up in the paint? Make a free throw? Play defense? That's what I want our team called out on! If the players are called out for the skills they don't show on the court if fires them up to prove the media wrong. All the other off court stuff brought up just makes them rebell by playing poorly. Their jobs are hoops, that's where the national attention "SHOULD BE!"

Now I do agree with you that it will take some time to fix the mess this organization now owns, but in doing so let's also develop our young talent like Zach and Q and get them ready to lead this team when the lack luster squad moves on.

[Qyntel's Shadow]

Great post, Terrible. Interestingly, when Zach and Qyntel appear in the papers, the content focuses on their weaknesses as players, not people. Things like ~"Zach doesn't get the rebound because he doesn't work on the glass"~ and ~"Zach's interior defense is weak"~ or the Qyntel jabs ~"no defense"~ ~"no basketball IQ"~. Whether these statements earlier in the year had anything to do with it, we'll never know, but Zach gets rebounds now, and his defense has improved. Qyntel's defense is significantly better, and he's gotten a better flow on the offensive end. I totally agree with you Terrible, if the media would call out the weaknesses in their game like ~"the book on Wallace is he doesn't like contact, so everyone smacks him around like a ragdoll."~ maybe we'd see a response on the floor. Reminding us of off-court antics just annoys everyone but the Nat'l Enquirer readers that disguise themselves as sports fans.