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Masbee · 01-20-2006, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmurph

No they are not. POR used that pick (#27 if I recall) and their own 2nd rounder to get Jack, w\o the 27th pick that deal NEVER happens...that pick came from Utah as did DET 06' pick.

The DET pick, even if it is the last pick in the 1st round does matter and definitely counts when adding things up, b\c IF POR does do something similiar this next year, and uses that pick and their own 2nd rounder to move up, that pick will represent 90% of the value on such a pick exchange...again, gotten from Utah...

I a sick already of trying to explain this. This is my 3rd post on this. If you don't get or refuse to get it - realize you willfully choose not to understand.

If you insist on continuing to say something that is untrue - namely that we traded the #3 (presumably and possibly Chris Paul) - and only the #3, for what turned out to be Webster, Jack and the Detroit 06 1st, you lose credibility, with me anyway. And you are spreading misinformation on this board. Stop it already.

Tell me again where is the player on Portland's roster that we got with our own 2005 #35 pick?

As an example, in 2004, we drafted Ha in the second round with our own 2nd round pick. Where is our Ha for 2005?

For those reading this who are confused and need a recap.

Portland had #3 & #35. Traded #3 for #6 & #27 & 06 1st.

Now had #6, #27, #35 & 06 1st. Traded #27 & #35 for #22.

Now had #6, #22 & 06 1st.

Thus #3 & #35 was traded for #6, #22 & 06 1st or likely:

Chris Paul & ?? (say Ricky Sanchez who was on the radar on this board prior to the draft) for:

Martell Webster, Jarrett Jack and the last pick in the 1st round of the 2006 draft (which looks to be shallow).

tlong · 01-20-2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmurph

Why? Oh...I don't know...Maybe b\c Per 48min stats are crap?...I can't believe you or any other person here would place much stock in them...

As for the rest...could you reach a little more? A 6'10 power forward SHOULD post a higher FG % than 6'0 PG...that doesn't help your point at all..amongst sophmores? Are you kidding me? Is the % weigh better in Jefferson's favor if you count only weekend games? What about Sunday afternoon starts?

Rebounds and blocked shots? You are seriously reaching here, but what else is new...

Earth to Kmurph. Come in Kmurph.

Per 48min stats certainly are not crap when comparing these two players. That is the only way you can normalize the stats in order to provide a valid comparison. Of course I listed FG%, Rebs, and BS's as it helps my point of view more. However, I also listed efficiency which should not matter. You notice Jefferson was 15th and Telfair was 21st. I listed rankings among sophomores only so the population would not be so large. It makes it easier to compare.

Kmurph · 01-20-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

If you insist on continuing to say something that is untrue - namely that we traded the #3 (presumably and possibly Chris Paul) - and only the #3, for what turned out to be Webster, Jack and the Detroit 06 1st, you lose credibility, with me anyway.

I don't recall ever saying (INSISTING !!!!) that...Did you even read the post you quoted from me? Sorry dude..it is YOU who CLEARY does not get it...

getting Jack WOULD NOT HAVE likely happened w\o the 27th pick....How many other ways do I have to state it?

#3 was traded for #6, #27 and DET 06' pick....

POR used that #27 and their own #35 to move up to #22 to get Jack...again w\o the #27 THEY DO NOT GET JACK....literally

You don't seriously think Denver would have swapped POR the #22 for the #35 now do you? The fact that POR used their own 2nd in order to get the 22nd pick is inconsequential to the FACT that w\o the #27 (acquired from UTA) they NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE THE DEAL IN THE FIRST PLACE...damm, it isn't rocket science...figure it out...let it stew in your melon for a minute..

and you STILL still haven't answered why the DET 06' pick should not factor in comparisons to Paul and what POR got AND WAS ABLE TO FURTHER ACQUIRE from trading that pick.

and sorry...but saying a late 1st and 2nd round pick are EQUAL in value is weak sauce...seriously...Some years the gap may be smaller than others but it is still more valuable of a pick...

Kmurph · 01-20-2006, 04:45 PM

tlong...

I think it is you and anyone else who thinks per 48min are a meaningful statistic that needs to come back to earth....

Per 48min is one of the MOST decieving statistics there is...and it holds LITTLE weight to me and should to anyone with 1/2 a brain...

I am sure we could scour the NBA benches for several players whose Per 48 stats look fantastic...but it holds (and should hold) little actually merit as an indicator to a players actual statistics if they were indeed given those minutes.....

Those numbers rarely add up like they suggest they do...but I would hope that you already knew that....

I can't state it any more clearly...using Jefferson's rpg and bspg as an arguement to why he is better than Telfair is beyond laughable.....

Masbee · 01-20-2006, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmurph

and you STILL still haven't answered why the DET 06' pick should not factor in comparisons to Paul and what POR got AND WAS ABLE TO FURTHER ACQUIRE from trading that pick.

and sorry...but saying a late 1st and 2nd round pick are EQUAL in value is weak sauce...seriously...Some years the gap may be smaller than others but it is still more valuable of a pick...

You can either say Paul for Webster and Jack, which the deal essentially boils down to, or you can be more precise - and wordy.

What you cannot do is LIE and say we traded Paul for Webster, Jack AND a future pick.

As for your comparison of the picks, actually the pick we gave up is MORE valuable than the one we are going to get. #35 with a NON guaranteed contract in a deep draft, now in time, Versus:
the #30, in a shallow draft on a guaranteed contract, one year later.

Let THAT stew in your brain as I put you on my ignore list.

tlong · 01-20-2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmurph

tlong...

I think it is you and anyone else who thinks per 48min are a meaningful statistic that needs to come back to earth....

Per 48min is one of the MOST decieving statistics there is...and it holds LITTLE weight to me and should to anyone with 1/2 a brain...

I am sure we could scour the NBA benches for several players whose Per 48 stats look fantastic...but it holds (and should hold) little actually merit as an indicator to a players actual statistics if they were indeed given those minutes.....

Those numbers rarely add up like they suggest they do...but I would hope that you already knew that....

I can't state it any more clearly...using Jefferson's rpg and bspg as an arguement to why he is better than Telfair is beyond laughable.....

You are crazy dude. You have to project the stats out to per 48 mins to make a comparison. That is the only way to do it. It does not necessarily reflect what the player would do if he were actually given those minutes, but it does guage their effectiveness on the court. Why wouldn't you use Jefferson's rpg and bspg to argue his superiority? He's a freaking power forward!

handclap problematic · 01-20-2006, 06:15 PM

Masbee... I get your point, but I don't necissarily agree with it.
I would rather have the 30th pick in this year's draft than 35th in the last. First of all, it is 5 places higher... and secondly, I am tired of all the talk about weak drafts. Every single year people complain about the draft calling it weak, or lopsided...or anything else. Last year was considered a weak draft as well. I remember tons of Blazers fans here talking about how weak it was. Heck, in the year with Lebron, Wade and Mello, people called it weak. People said there are 3 or 4 good picks and after that it is weak. There are aways good players coming up, and this year is no different. Tell the Spurs that they can't select a good player with the 30th pick..... Tell them. They will laugh.

Prunetang

Masbee · 01-20-2006, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prunetang

Masbee... I get your point, but I don't necissarily agree with it.
I would rather have the 30th pick in this year's draft than 35th in the last. First of all, it is 5 places higher... and secondly, I am tired of all the talk about weak drafts. Every single year people complain about the draft calling it weak, or lopsided...or anything else. Last year was considered a weak draft as well. I remember tons of Blazers fans here talking about how weak it was. Heck, in the year with Lebron, Wade and Mello, people called it weak. People said there are 3 or 4 good picks and after that it is weak. There are aways good players coming up, and this year is no different. Tell the Spurs that they can't select a good player with the 30th pick..... Tell them. They will laugh.

Prunetang

Weak vs Strong drafts are not the same thing as Deep vs Shallow drafts.

Last year was considered a relatively weak draft, but deep. 2006 was predicted to be a relatively weak, but shallow.

I don't know who called the LeBron draft "weak". I never heard that. I heard "top heavy" or "shallow", not weak. And that label was basically true. Outside of the Lotto, there wasn't much to be had as it turned out.

zagsfan20 · 01-21-2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Tell the Spurs that they can't select a good player with the 30th pick..... Tell them. They will laugh.

Yea really, where would San Antonio be without Ginobili and Parker?.....

You can get good picks late in the draft, look at Michael Redd and Gilbert Arenas....

Kmurph · 01-21-2006, 01:13 AM

What Masbee? You can't be proven wrong, so you have to go grade school and give me the old "talk to the hand"?

tsk tsk...How childish, I expect better from you....

The fact remains POR has Det pick this year and they were able to parlay the 27th pick with the use of their own 2nd to get Jack...Both DIRECTLY as a result of the trade with UTA..ie..passing up on Paul...quit ignoring the obvious and acting like a baby...

How you can predict that the 35th pick last year will be more valuable than DET pick this year is truly astonishing...considering the draft hasn't even been held yet....Yu should be handicapping in Vegas...

tlong -

No...no..you don't HAVE TO project stats out to per 48min to make a valid comparison that is just plain silly...sorry not buying that crap

Wow, well what a surprise then...A 6'10 PF averages more rpg and bspg than a 6'0 PG...There is a real newsflash...OTOH Telfair averages more assists, steals and has a better 3pt FG%...I guess scoreboard goes to me then...Who would have thought a PG could be better in those categories than a PF?

Utherhimo · 01-21-2006, 01:55 AM

lets see what are some of the players that can be found around the 30 mark!

28. Marcus Vinicius 6-9 190 SF Brazil 1984
29. Hilton Armstrong 6-11 235 PF/C UConn Sr.
30. Marco Killingsworth 6-7 268 PF Ind. Sr.
31. Damir Markota 6-10 225 SF Cro.1985
32. Hassan Adams 6-4 201 SF Arizona Sr

at least 2 of them good be kept over seas and two are pf or pf/c! not too bad!

hhhmmm what would the 30th and 35th picks in the draft be worth? 17th? 30th 35th and cash for the second chicago pick? or do we trade the 5th pick and the 35th or 30th for the 2nd or 3rd pick?

2/3 and the 35th get Bargnani or aldridge whoever is left and draft a international player that can stay over seas for a while but then agian having 3 pfs wouldnt be bad either.

i find the draft the most exciting part of the season lol sad i know!

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