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mook · 08-22-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

Legal issues aside, does anybody care to venture an opinion as to what the trade value of our prospective starting forward tandem of Darius Miles and Zach Randolph is as of right now? My guess is it's down considerably from where it was at the end of last season...and I didn't really think that was possible.

I'm trying to think of whom we get could for them (without giving up one of our youngsters), and I'm frankly stumped. There was a time where I thought Steve Francis was feasible, but I think we've passed that point. We'd have to trade for a completely worthless (borderline retired), vastly overpaid player on a pretty long contract. There aren't as many of those around as there were a few years ago.

We're keeping Randolph for a few years, regardless of the outcome here (barring prison, which would void his contract).

Reep · 08-22-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mook

We're keeping Randolph for a few years, regardless of the outcome here (barring prison, which would void his contract).

I think that is the bottom line. With his contract and issues, there is no value in trading him.

BlazerFanFoLife · 08-22-2006, 01:03 PM

He hasnt done anything wrong, that we know of. I really believe that this is just the females who were present trying to get some extra money out of Zach. I mean they got a good paycheck and afterwards they felt like they could get more. They got greedy and didn't get what they asked for (later). So they threatend to go to the cops with a BS story. They told Zach that his money could make it all go away but Zach refused. To me this sounds much more realistic than that Zach commited a sexual assault or even witnessed one. Worst comes to worse it may have been two consenting adaults, later the female wanted (more) money Zach wouldnt pay her any more.

Ed O · 08-22-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa1177

Really...here is a hypothetical question for you then. Would you want your kids hanging out with a guy who had been repeatedly accused of sexually molesting children...yet never convicted?

That has nothing to do with a man's ability to play basketball and help his team win games.

Ed O.

**Oldmangrouch** · 08-22-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Darius

My opinion is that whatever happened in the hotel room did not stop at a sex show. Escort services are know to be a front for prostitution, which is illegal in Oregon. I find it hard to believe that two young males with a boatload of cash didn't cross the line, in an industry known for crossing the line, and at the very least have sex with the women for money.

What? How can I say that without any evidence? You can't judge Zach so unfairly? You are a naive stupid american sports fan . . . (thought I would get that out since I figure it was coming)

Actually, that suspicion is perfectly reasonable. It is the huge leap from prostitution to rape that disturbs me.

This isn't TV. Not every car parked by an expired meter has a dead body in the trunk!

**crandc** · 08-22-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa1177

Really...here is a hypothetical question for you then. Would you want your kids hanging out with a guy who had been repeatedly accused of sexually molesting children...yet never convicted?

The tpye of people i respect and view as "good people" don't go around getting accused of sexual assualt. IMO we don't need that type on this team.

I mean seriously WTF was Zach doing getting two hookers/stripper to perfrom a live sex show for him and his friends in a downtown Hotel Room?

SA, Zach is not a kid. Makes a difference. I would not want my children to spend time with someone who has been accused of child molestation because I would fear they are not safe around such a person. I just don't see that this is relevant here.

I have no sympathy at all for men who commit sexual assault, but so far as I know Zach has not been accused of that. We certainly did not need such people (Ruben Patterson, not accused, convicted) on the team, I agree.

As for hiring women to perform a sex show...if he did that I personally find it repulsive. But I would be SHOCKED if he is the only one in the NBA who does it. IMO the attitude towards women of men in this society is pretty bad and young male athletes are often expected to show public contempt for women. Not an excuse, but would you want to dump anyone who does such crap? If so you may have a very small team. Hakeem Olajuwon would qualify. Few others.

I also agree that Zach has a penchant for getting into stupid situations and shows poor judgment repeatedly.

And I agree with those who say that hiring an attorney is a wise precaution. Especially for someone who frankly is not the brightest bulb in the box.

Blazer Ringbearer · 08-22-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Darius

You know I keep getting called naive on this. I've tried to show that I at least understand the legal system by citing to the aid and abet statute, by correcting posters about the whether it is a crime to refuse to speak with the police, by pointing out another situation where someone under investigation did not officially retain an atorney. I understand no one agrees and am willing to conceed that my opinion may be wrong (not the first time), but I am not naive about this topic.

I'm not saying that you don't know anything - I'm sure you know more than I do about Oregon law, and that's cool. Where I think you're naive is in thinking that people at risk of being charged in a crime should just take the time to do their own research and depend on their own legal interpretations and capabilities to protect their interests. Why in the world shouldn't someone hire an attorney for legal matters? I also thought it was naive when you made a comment regarding to the effect that if you haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about... plenty of innocent people end up in legal battles just by being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Those people need legal representation to be sure that they don't end up in prison.

Quote:

And if you are about calling like you see it, Zach didn't hire Houze to protect his millions. Houze is soley a criminal defense attorney. Should the alleged victim try and sue Zach civilly for money, Zach would be hiring a completely different attorney. This isn't about saving millions, but rather making sure he doesn't get into criminal trouble.

If Zach ended up in jail, he wouldn't be pulling in $10+ Million per year for the rest of his playing career... something like that could end up costing him close to $100M if he were to have a long prolific stint in the NBA. That plus his personal freedom mean that there's a whole lot at risk... more than you'd want to put in the hands of your own legal counsel, or a couple of phone conversations with a lawyer you find in the phone book.

I think the case that you make about hiring a lawyer being damaging to the person's character is pretty weak.

There was a lot more going on in the Ramsey's case than the fact that they hired a lawyer - they in fact hired a PR firm, and didn't speak with the police for months. They also refused to take lie detector tests and had all kinds of goofy evidence and circumstances in that case that seemed to possibly implicate them.

Besides, in Zach's case, he has already been pretty much vilified in the local community. How would not hiring a lawyer have helped his case? How would the Oregonian write it if he was refusing to answer questions (while in his rights) of the police? He'd be just as instantly guilty. Wouldn't you protect your own interests rather than speculate on how the average joe will react to your situation? Isn't that a time in your life when you'd think... who cares what they think, I'm going to look out for me? I would.

Iwatas · 08-22-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crandc

As for hiring women to perform a sex show...if he did that I personally find it repulsive. But I would be SHOCKED if he is the only one in the NBA who does it.

I was pretty shocked. Why would he need to pay? Seriously.

And yes, it is stupid, etc. etc. Men are often self-destructive. Rich ones are just self-destructive in more externally amusing ways.

At least (assuming Zach did not rape anyone), this was a victimless crime, between consenting adults with no marriage or family that would get wrecked as a result. It does not make it pretty, but it makes it much better than, say, a run-of-the-mill adultery event.

Quote:

IMO the attitude towards women of men in this society is pretty bad and young male athletes are often expected to show public contempt for women.

Aw, heck. I cannot resist.

Really? "This society"? Why not call a spade what it is and acknowledge that a *certain* sub-culture with certain disgusting musical lyrics and a specifically high rate of unemployment, drug use, teenage pregnancy, convicted criminals, and fatherless homes is really to blame? Name some young male athletes who show contempt for women who come from bible-thumping backgrounds? Buck Williams in his prime, perhaps? Men of all stripes from strong families instinctively respect women -- because they respect their mothers. Show me a man who holds women in contempt and I'll show you a man from a broken and probably irreligious home.

And why not mention that liberal America enables and condones this particular sub-culture on the peculiar grounds that it would be racist to behave otherwise?

Flame shields up!

iWatas

It's_GO_Time · 08-22-2006, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blazer Ringbearer

I'm not saying that you don't know anything - I'm sure you know more than I do about Oregon law, and that's cool. Where I think you're naive is in thinking that people at risk of being charged in a crime should just take the time to do their own research and depend on their own legal interpretations and capabilities to protect their interests. Why in the world shouldn't someone hire an attorney for legal matters? I also thought it was naive when you made a comment regarding to the effect that if you haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about... plenty of innocent people end up in legal battles just by being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Those people need legal representation to be sure that they don't end up in prison.

If Zach ended up in jail, he wouldn't be pulling in $10+ Million per year for the rest of his playing career... something like that could end up costing him close to $100M if he were to have a long prolific stint in the NBA. That plus his personal freedom mean that there's a whole lot at risk... more than you'd want to put in the hands of your own legal counsel, or a couple of phone conversations with a lawyer you find in the phone book.

I think the case that you make about hiring a lawyer being damaging to the person's character is pretty weak.

There was a lot more going on in the Ramsey's case than the fact that they hired a lawyer - they in fact hired a PR firm, and didn't speak with the police for months. They also refused to take lie detector tests and had all kinds of goofy evidence and circumstances in that case that seemed to possibly implicate them.

Besides, in Zach's case, he has already been pretty much vilified in the local community. How would not hiring a lawyer have helped his case? How would the Oregonian write it if he was refusing to answer questions (while in his rights) of the police? He'd be just as instantly guilty. Wouldn't you protect your own interests rather than speculate on how the average joe will react to your situation? Isn't that a time in your life when you'd think... who cares what they think, I'm going to look out for me? I would.

Well we are just going in circles (and realize all posters see it your way) It sad to me that poster's view of the legal system is such that should your name be brought up in a police investigation that the immediate action should be to retain an attorney, no questions asked.

I will mention that to think my thoughts are naive is fair (wrong but fair). But I don't think it is fair to characterize my response to the situation as taking your time, doing their own research, making a couple of phone calls to attorney's out of the phone book. That isn't what I'm saying and maybe why you think it is a naive response.

I think sitting down with a respected criminal attorney in private to discuss the situation is the appropriate response. Only then do you decide if there is a need to actually retain the attorney. And if you add to the mix the potential client is a public figure, that should weigh into the decison of publically retaining an attorney.

**sa1177** · 08-22-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crandc

SA, Zach is not a kid. Makes a difference. I would not want my children to spend time with someone who has been accused of child molestation because I would fear they are not safe around such a person. I just don't see that this is relevant here.

I have no sympathy at all for men who commit sexual assault, but so far as I know Zach has not been accused of that. We certainly did not need such people (Ruben Patterson, not accused, convicted) on the team, I agree.

As for hiring women to perform a sex show...if he did that I personally find it repulsive. But I would be SHOCKED if he is the only one in the NBA who does it. IMO the attitude towards women of men in this society is pretty bad and young male athletes are often expected to show public contempt for women. Not an excuse, but would you want to dump anyone who does such crap? If so you may have a very small team. Hakeem Olajuwon would qualify. Few others.

I also agree that Zach has a penchant for getting into stupid situations and shows poor judgment repeatedly.

And I agree with those who say that hiring an attorney is a wise precaution. Especially for someone who frankly is not the brightest bulb in the box.

The relevance has to do with reputation....due to Zach's reputation I am not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt anymore...just like I wouldn't trust my kids with a man who had been accused of sexual assualt on multiple occasions.

A man's reputation always precedes him and should be taken seriously IMO.

Ed O · 08-22-2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa1177

The relevance has to do with reputation....due to Zach's reputation I am not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt anymore...just like I wouldn't trust my kids with a man who had been accused of sexual assualt on multiple occasions.

A man's reputation always precedes him and should be taken seriously IMO.

Why is his reputation as a man even relevant?

He's a basketball player. He's paid to play basketball. The only reason any of us know he exists is because he's tall and an excellent, excellent player of the sport.

If and when he commits crime that impacts his ability to play basketball, then that's what should matter. He hasn't done that to date (that we know of) and he hasn't even been charged here.

Ed O.

**sa1177** · 08-22-2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed O

Why is his reputation as a man even relevant?

He's a basketball player. He's paid to play basketball. The only reason any of us know he exists is because he's tall and an excellent, excellent player of the sport.

If and when he commits crime that impacts his ability to play basketball, then that's what should matter. He hasn't done that to date (that we know of) and he hasn't even been charged here.

Ed O.

Ahh reputation is important because you said him merely being accused is "meanin

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