Ed O

It's the cycle of fandom. People were hyping Zach when he was significantly worse than Rasheed and Bonzi, and (unfortunately) if/when Roy doesn't emerge as a star, people will bash him, too.

Ed O.

__________________
"In the end, it all comes down to talent. You can talk all you want about intangibles, I just don't know what that means. Talent makes winners, not intangibles. Can nice guys win? Sure, nice guys can win -- if they're nice guys with a lot of talent. Nice guys with a little talent finish fourth, and nice guys with no talent finish last."

-- Sandy Koufax

Schilly

I want to say To ringbearer or anyone else who thinks I am saying that simply benching Zach makse us a better team, you have totally mis-interpereted me. So far with the new configuration of this team...Yes I know 2 games is too small of a sample, but all that per 100 posessions stuff was for last season, big sample... Zach makes the team less efficient when he is in. It's pretty hard to debate that based on the performance per minute with/without him. DOes he make the team worse? Don't know but for 2 games I think it's definately debateable.

My contention is this Portland needs a PF that is better suited to the other players on the floor. It appears through 2 games that Roy has a better positive impact on the game than Zach does, and having watched both games in person it seems that he simply plays within the flow of the rest of his team. The ball moves around alot as long as it stays out of Zachs hands.

We need a PF that fits the rest of the players on the floor. As good as Zach may be, I personally don't believe he is that guy. And based on his impact (+.8 per 100 posessions last year?) He may be much more replaceable than people contend.

Schilly

Roy is far from significantly worse than Zach....In fact with his defense and overall basketball smarts it is my opinion, yes based on a small sampling and on what reports we have access too, that Roy is the best player on this team.

I also think that Portland fans are lulled into the idea that a rookie can't be our best player. Aside from Sabas, the last impact Rookie Portland has had was Mychael Thompson. Outside of that in the last 12 years or so they have all been either low 1st rounders, or HS players. Heck Sam Bowie was our second best Rook in that time period going for about 10 and 10 IIRC.

tlong

FWIW, I believe Roy is our best player too. When Ed catches a few games he will see this too. However, I do not believe Zach is a problem for the team. He looks healthy and is far better than any reasonable alternative I can think of. I think Nate just needs to run the offense through Roy more often and this will fix the problem.

Schilly

My whole thought is Zach needs to buy into the system and from some things I've heard, he isn't. He also needs to start playing some D. He made some effort last night, but we all have known he really has never been an adequite defender.

I think Zach has the tools to do these things, but I doubt he has the mindset.

BlazerCaravan

Doesn't the nature of stats like that require them to be measured with a large number of games as sample size, to compensate for matchups, bench-vs-starter cycles when a certain player is in, etc.? One game could mean anything or nothing at all. I think you'd need at least 10 games before determining a clear effect.

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The kids are all right!

Schilly

Absolutely that's why last years stats were looked at as well.

mook

three points:

1. So?
So Schilly, what do you suggest we do? I asked earlier who we should trade for or if we should dump Zach for nothing, and I haven't seen a reply. When I used to rail about Stoudamire all the time, at least I made suggestions on what to do. All I've read is that Zach shouldn't play, but nothing about who exactly will replace him. Should we just play four players?

2. Nobody seems to be bringing up who was in the game last night for Golden State when Zach (and also Roy) sat. If Baron Davis was sitting too, it'll drastically impact the +/- of Randolph. I didn't see the game so I don't know.

3. Zach was coming back from microfracture surgery last year. Looking at last year's +/- stats are pretty much worthless, if Zach is indeed now healthy. Unless you want to also say that because Emeka Okafor and Amare Stoudamire's stats last year stunk, they will this year too.

Oil Can

Ed, I really disagree. My personal opinion is that Portlander's are disgruntled primarily with Zach's perceived persona. When he appears to be not engaged, not gratefuly, not happy, and then has thuggish incidents...it kills him.

Blazer fans have a LONG tradiotn of LOVING our Blazer heroes. Drexler, Porter, Kersey etc...legends around here, even after their skill sets diminished.

mook

do they really? I'm trying to think of recent Blazers who are universally loved. Sabonis. Pippen. not exactly going out on a limb to love two of the hundred or so greatest players to ever play the game.

uh, anyone else?

we made it to a number of playoff series, and two Western Conference Finals, since Drexler, and that's all the people I can come up with.

seems to me we blazer fans exert a lot more energy coming up with reasons to hate players than love them.

Dan

Ed is trying to incorporate the Bonzi Wellsian approach to passing the blame. It's the fans who turn on the players, and they'll always do it. It's not Bonzi that made Bonzi into a dumb****, it's Portland fans. It's just like Zach is being picked on just because he's the 'star' and thats what fans in Portland do.

__________________
A Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything".

when will the loss of life end?

The world respects the power of our example, not an example of our power.

I'd like to say I made this, but I didn't

Schilly

I did at some point say that simply subtracting Zach isn't the right thing to do. Whoever we trade Zach for will have an impact on the game. I'm not on the inside so I can't say who's available to be had.

I'll find time tonight and see how that stacks up.

Hey...What if?

Dan

thnk for a second, who are the players we "hated" on?

guys who use pot, guys who are selfish dip****s, guys who don't play great teamball, guys who chase down refs, whine, throw tantrums, spit on players, accuse fans of being racist, give up, quit, flip the fan the bird...

you know, things that ooh...favorite players don't do.

__________________
A Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything".

when will the loss of life end?

The world respects the power of our example, not an example of our power.

I'd like to say I made this, but I didn't

Schilly