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Sambonius · 05-22-2008, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Joseus

I can't really argue with the stats, but being a Bulls fan who's watched Kirk since he's been on the team, he's definitely good enough to be able to shoot when he has to. Perhaps I'm just nutty.

He really does have a solid shot, he just has a tendency to fall into slumps (which he worsens by taking bad shots). When he's out there doing his thing, he can be a very solid offensive player - he just doesn't show it too often, and I think it can mostly be attributed to him trying to initiate the offense and look for others. His shooting suffers because of this.

Would it be fair to say then that he isn't a guy you want initiating the offense?

B-Roy · 05-22-2008, 01:42 AM

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Anything can happen once. Darius Miles looked like a future all-star, Jerome James looked like a decent center, and Theo Ratliff was the greatest shot blocker of all time, etc. One season out of 5 or six seasons in the league don't make me confident one's shooting.

All it does is show that he's capable of shooting well. That's all. But under Nate's system, you would expect him to become better, not worse.

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Agreed that the draft isn't where we go to find our starting PG for next season. I think Barbosa is on the cheap, Mo Williams is definitly on the cheap, TJ Ford is. The list isn't long, but I think we should exhaust all options before turning to a guy with a guy who can't shoot consistently and still has a lot of money owed to him for the next few seasons. Some people value the idea of a great defender at the PG, and others value great offense, and others value in between. I'd like to have both but Steve Nash is a horrible defensive player, as are most PGs, so the issue of defense at that position may be a bit overrated, just a bit. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to acquire Kirk, I'm just saying there are red flags and I'd like to see other options looked at before we jump on our first opportunity.

Hinrich took a step back in regards to defense this season. But it might have something to do with the Bulls completely sucking and also losing their coach. Nate is a defensive minded coach, and I can see Hinrich becoming an even better defender than he already is. I've watched Williams and Barbosa a lot. And sometimes it just seems to me that they DON'T want to play defense. I don't like trusting players that are solely offensive minded. As for TJ Ford....I just don't want him. Too many injuries and not worth what we could give up. Unless it's just Jack.

Thing with Nash is, he had Marion and Bell. Two great defenders that took the pressure off of him needing to defend.
I understand your concern, but with the package we're giving, I don't know how it can get any cheaper. This is a great deal for Portland, and if offered, KP would have to think long and hard about pulling the trigger.

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I didn't say the Blazers would have an issue on the offensive end, I said Kirk might due to his checkered past regarding his FG% and overall inefficiency from the field. I don't recall it, but I do hear from numerous Bulls fans that Kirk has issues with getting the ball into the post. That's something else to look at considering our game plan is going to be that for the most part.

I'd like to see some of the more savvy board members show some details defensive numbers regarding Kirk and comparing him to guys like Barbosa, Mo Williams, Devin Harris, and even Rondo. I'm not talking about steals per game, I'm talking about the technical stuff like their opponent scoring averages, +/- when on the court, etc. That would really be appreciated.

I don't know about that, but his numbers would probably be pretty bad for this year, considering the whole Bulls roster played poorly. But Hinrich is a very capable player. More so than an offensive minded PG like Williams or Barbosa. IMO, at least.

B-Roy · 05-22-2008, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sambonius

Would it be fair to say then that he isn't a guy you want initiating the offense?

Why does it matter that much in Portland though? We have a ball dominating 2 guard in Brandon Roy, who is most certainly going to have the ball in his hands a lot as well.

**King Joseus** · 05-22-2008, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sambonius

Would it be fair to say then that he isn't a guy you want initiating the offense?

Ideally, he's a combo guard. He's not the best distributor, no.

I think he's a solid starter, though, and certainly better than Mo Williams. I like Barbosa, though I'm not sure he's the better overall fit.

By no means is Kirk the perfect PG, but I do believe that he would thrive in a new location (in this case, Portland). I think he'd feel less pressure on the Blazers and be able to play well on both ends for you.

Sambonius · 05-22-2008, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Roy

Why does it matter that much in Portland though? We have a ball dominating 2 guard in Brandon Roy, who is most certainly going to have the ball in his hands a lot as well.

Precisely, I don't think it does. If you take play making out of the equation, you're going to be comparing defense to shooting and penetrating. D'Antoni didn't preach defense, Nate has. Look at what he's got out of Martell in just a few seasons. He's probably our best man to man defender. It's possible that Nate could do the same with Barbosa who has a very efficient player on the offensive end, defensive is where it gets tricky, but with Martell, Roy, Oden, and Aldridge all very capable defenders, a weaker PG on the defensive end, might not hurt, much like Steve Nash in Phoenix.

B-Roy · 05-22-2008, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sambonius

Precisely, I don't think it does. If you take play making out of the equation, you're going to be comparing defense to shooting and penetrating. D'Antoni didn't preach defense, Nate has. Look at what he's got out of Martell in just a few seasons. He's probably our best man to man defender. It's possible that Nate could do the same with Barbosa who has a very efficient player on the offensive end, defensive is where it gets tricky, but with Martell, Roy, Oden, and Aldridge all very capable defenders, a weaker PG on the defensive end, might not hurt, much like Steve Nash in Phoenix.

From what I've seen, it's going to be really hard for guys like Barbosa to play good defense. I don't know. I HIGHLY dislike Barbosa though. Maybe it's because he's really a shooting guard, but I just don't see him working in Portland.

And what about Martell. He's playing slightly better defense after 2 years. Yeah, he'll improve, but I'll be damned if we have to wait a few years before a guy like Barbosa starts playing better defense.

The reason I like this deal is because Hinrich is already a good defender. No waiting, just impact. I think that's what we need at the moment.

BlazerFan22 · 05-22-2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Roy

I know there's a thread on Hinrich, but I want to discuss this trade in particular.

This is dependent on Chicago selecting Rose.

POR sends

-#13
-Webster/Frye
-Raef Lafrentz
-Jack if needed (Probably not)

CHI sends

-Kirk Hinrich
-Andres Nocioni

The general consensus from Chicago fans is a thumbs up.

What do Portland fans think?

Yes I like it, I like it alot. I hate to give up Webster but you really have to think about this one. Hirich would really shine in Portland under Nate and playing with Roy. As for Nocioni goes every successful team needs that good character guy who knows how to play dirty. I would rather trade Jones insted of webster. Although you would be a fool just to say no and not even think about it if they wanted webter.

c_note · 05-22-2008, 03:25 AM

Not for Webster. If it's Frye, I'd do it.

mediocre man · 05-22-2008, 07:32 AM

I would much rather give up Outlaw than Webster. I just don't think Outlaw has the best basketball IQ, and in the long run Webster will be a better all around player.

Hinrich is a second tier PG in the NBA, and probably falls somewhere around 10ish overall if you take age and everything else into account.

**nikolokolus** · 05-22-2008, 09:12 AM

I think both sides benefit from this deal, though I have this sneaking suspicion that Martell is going to have his "Travis" year in 2008-2009, where he fully emerges from that "three year incubator" he's been in and becomes a legit NBA starter.

For whatever reason I think Kirk would be a really nice addition to the roster and I tend to look at this past year in the context of the Bulls team as a whole having a very down year.

We all know Brandon is this team's play-maker in crunch time, which means Kirk doesn't need to bear the full burden of initiating, which from the sounds of things is where he's gotten in trouble.

A backcourt rotation of Roy, Hinrich, Blake, Fernandez has a nice ring to it ... of course this leaves El Chacho rotting on the bench for much of the year barring any major improvements in his shooting and/or defense this offseason, and one wonders if it wouldn't also be worth cutting bait with him this off-season in a trade (Rudy's bestest buddy or not).

It's_GO_Time · 05-22-2008, 09:42 AM

I'm with most . . . if KP trades for Hinrich, then he must see something in Hinrich and that is good enough for now (KP has earned that).

I don't see KP pulling the trigger on the deal. At 9 mil/yr the analysis for KP has got to be does he see Hinrich as the starting PG for the next 4 years, because that is the financial commitment to making the trade. It is too big of a gamble to take on Hinrich. This is not a team that is ready to start taking on bad contracts, and after last year, it appears the Bulls overvalued Hinrich and gave him a overly lucrative contract.

blzr610 · 05-22-2008, 09:53 AM

I say we should wait until the trade deadline to see how well Martell and Travis have stepped up their game before we include them in a trade. I'd hate to see either of them turn into a 20/5/5 player on another team and have every basketball pundit bashing the Blazers for giving them away prematurely, like the Jermaine O'Neal debacle. I don't see any other team needing Hinrich to the degree that we do, so waiting may be the best option.

dwood615 · 05-22-2008, 10:38 AM

the thing with fans liking it an gms liking it is completely different i made the mistake of talkin to another teams fans before...

it doesnt work out

how many times has a gm made a deal that the fans didnt like...hundreds probably...

so who cares about the fans

from a business side it would be good for chi-town

they cut hinrichs deal to 1 year
they get two lotto picks
they get a young player in webster or frye
and jack only has 1 year left on his deal so they audition him out while they rebuild

would i do it???

NO...

reason:dont like the contract and thats money we could spend elsewhere

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