PorterIn2004

Now that was awful, save for what it did for Drexler. Wow that was bad. The team is arguably still recovering from that one.

KingSpeed

Bonzi Wells was offered up for discussion so I thought I'd mention his place in the Blazers' record books.

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ProZach

Atlanta had a record of 37-45 and made the playoffs in the east. Goldenstate had a record of 48-34 and didn't make the playoffs in the west.

Checkmate.

The west had 8 teams with over 50 wins, the East had 3.

Checkmate.

The East had a win total of 582. The west had 648. Considering non-conference opponents only play each other twice a season, that's a staggering difference.

Checkmate.

Or 2006-2007 if you prefer... The East had two teams with over 50 wins, and a total of 583 wins. The West had 647 total and five teams over 50.

2005-2006: East had 588 wins, the West had 642.

2004-2005: East had 584, the West had 646.

2003-2004: East had 559, the West had 630.

2002-2003: East had 575, the West had 614.

In fact, the last time the East actually had more wins was 1999-2000. That's not a coincidence, that's not a trend, that's a habit. That's so far back most of us had never heard of Osama Bin Laden. That's so far back gas costed $1.70/gallon.

At the present time, anyone who would actually argue that the West is not a better/tougher conference is a moron. I surely wouldn't want my post edited by the awesome moderators because I name-called a specific poster, so I'll just say, "You know who you are." And so does everybody else.

Checkmate.

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uhh...

nikolokolus

That's your argument for the East's supremacy over the West? Good god.

Dan

I was thinking of Billy Ray Bates, and offered up his place in the record books.

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A Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything".

when will the loss of life end?

The world respects the power of our example, not an example of our power.

I'd like to say I made this, but I didn't

moldorf

this thread is hilarious...a deja-vu rehashing of the Randolph trade from over a year ago.

And what's funny is I see some of the same people making the same argument, just with some different accessories.

Last year, people were saying that Zach was going to be an all-star in the eastern conference...that he was going to propel the Knicks into the playoffs.

Well he wasn't and he didn't, and as a matter of fact, he was a prime contributor to the implosion of the team.

Now the same people are saying zach will thrive under d'antoni...all zach needs is another coach...another system...another chance.

Maybe it's possible that zach's game is what it is and nothing more. And that zach's game simply won't mesh well with any team basketball. He needs his touches and he needs his shots to be effective. And the nature of his ball-pounding, shot-clock-eating, offensive game is such that the rest of a team's offense stagnates with zach as the focus. That's what happened in portland to be sure. And if he's not the focus, he's not effective. And in this case, 'effective' becomes a very relative term. And of course, he's a major defensive liability.

I don't know zach, so I can't really speak to his character. He may be a good guy. But his on court behaviour is selfish and lazy. Trading him was a great move for portland, and it would have been if they got almost nothing in return.

But Portland got a lot more then almost nothing. And it baffles me that people don't recognize that Paul Allen may have been the biggest proponent of this particular trade. Allen owed zach 62 million dollars for the balance of his contract. Francis was bought out for 30 million, and when he signed with Houston, 50% of that contract's amount was deducted from the 30 million buyout. So by exchanging the zach's contract for francis's contract, Allen saved somewhere around 33 million dollars. They probably made him more willing to send the 3 million to Phoenix that gained Rudy Fernandez, the 2 million to Philidelphia that gained Kaponen, and 3 million to New orleans that gained Batum.

So by making the zach trade, the blazers gained 30 million+ on the exchange of primary contracts; channing frye; a 2nd round pick; the TPE that landed James Jones (and both KP and Tom Penn have said...more then once, that without the TPE, Phoenix was unlikely to sell the pick that was used on Rudy); and the opportunity for cap-space next summer.

That is great value for randolph, especially when considering how randolph's absence from the blazer rotation opened PT for LMA.

And by the way, about that 2nd round pick that the knicks sent: KP used it to draft Asik and then traded him to chicago for Three 2nd round picks.

Finally, about the rumored zach to LA 'deal'. If true, the knicks were foolish to turn it down. But then the Clippers were foolish to offer. If they did, I suspect it was right after Brand defected and they were still in shock. I have a hard time believing they did though because of Sterling's penny-pinching ways and the reality of zach's contract.

Tortimer

I agree 100% with what you posted. The only other thing I could add is you can't win with a player that doesn't even try to play defense. I realize he isn't a good defender but I could live with that if he at least tried to play defense. It seems it is always the same people defending Zbo. I also don't believe the Clippers will give up anything of value for Zbo. If the Knicks think they can get Gordon for Zbo they are crazy. I guess we are talking about the Clippers but even they are not that dumb.

Dan

How is D'antoni better for Zach's game?!

__________________
A Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything".

when will the loss of life end?

The world respects the power of our example, not an example of our power.

I'd like to say I made this, but I didn't

alext42083

Zach's perceived value is much higher than we think IMO because he was a 20/10 guy on a bad team.

We all thought we could've gotten that elusive elite SF for this team with him, ie Rashard Lewis. But in the end, it seemed like that was a dream.

Zach can play, but we don't know what offers we had for him. It's easy to say we could've gotten more for Zach, but really, it's possible that a capable backup PF in Frye/an expiring contract in Francis/a trade exception was as good as it got.

And now the best thing NY can get for him is seemingly just cap space, equal to just a Francis contract. The Knicks want more, but won't get it.

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TwinkieFoot

1.)I'm a Knick fan that initially questioned why Donnie Walsh would reject the deal. I think I now understand his rationale. Anyway you want to cut it, Zach Randolph is a 20 and 10 player and is only 25 years old. He has his flaws but those flaws can be worked on at his age. If not, he is still a 20 and 10 player who could have his flaws masked within a teams offense. Contrary to popular belief, Randolph can make you a title contender on the proper team. He needs to go to an organization with an established system of winning, defensive players and veteran leadership (on and off the bench). Those are the type of teams that could harness his skills and cushion him from having to carry the entire burden of the team; the Pistons and Spurs would work well. Don't trade him for any and everything.

2.)One bad trade does not deserve another. The Blazers did not get nearly as much value as they should have in the Randolph trade. Even with his baggage, he is a game changer in the right system. Them messing up, should not mean we should settle on a similar package. After all, we do not have LaMarcus Aldridge waiting in the wings. Financial flexibility and draft picks are musts in this trade.

3.)Randolph's trade value has no where to go but up. He had one of his worst seasons last year but everyone knows that is because he does not fit. Even then, he still put up about 17 points and 10 rebounds a game. It's no secret he could contribute more to the game statistically than just that. If we hold onto him, we'll be dealing from a position of strength rather than weakness. His value would only increase from having one less year on his contract and still being young enough to return to his 20 and 10 form. With many of the former titans of the league beginning to go on a decline, I think the market for a player with his gifts only increase so until then, keep him as long as we need to until we get proper value. One thing is gauranteed and that is the fact that he'll have some pretty nice stats that could only help to inflate his value even further as teams get more desperate as the season progresses.

TwinkieFoot

P.S., I'm a Knick fan that H-A-T-E-D the trade when it was initially made because I felt it was overkill...and it turned out to be just that. I still thought that the Blazers completely screwed up trading him for so little but then again they did not need to get very much in return since they had all their building block and role players in place.

When the trade was first made we were stuck in a period where there were no expiring contracts large enough to exchange for Randolph. You also already had more than enough young talent where draft picks were not a priority. The next best option was a contract like Francis and a rotation player or players, which is essentially what you got (when you factor in exemptions and cash for James Jones, Rudy Fernandez and Kopanenon). You already had Aldridge on the bench (a clear starter in this league) and Greg Oden (who will be a superior player to Randolph), so all you really had to do was keep Randolph out of the West to avoid any negative PR. You may have not gotten proper value for a player of his skill, age and position but you did get the kind of value most necessary/valued for your team.

On the flip side, value to the Knicks is much different than that for the Blazers last year. We're going to look for the best trade possible since we're looking for as many assets to utilize in preparation for 2010. We probably will pursue the more popular package of draft picks and immediate expiring contracts (since they are some available) and should get it. I think a Pau Gasol package (draft picks, a prospect and financial flexibility; a fair trade IMO between the Lakers and Grizzlies) is what the Knicks are going to get.

Tortimer

TwinkieFoot good luck trying to build up Zbo trade value. If and when you trade Zbo I will be really surpised if you get anything of value for him. There are very few teams that would even consider trading for him and the few teams that might trade for him wouldn't give much in value. The only reason if the Clippers really did make a trade offer to the Knicks is they thought they could get him for nothing and it is the Clippers. Zbo is a black hole on offense and a terrible defender that doesn't even try on defense. Good luck!