Minstrel

Ah, okay...gotcha. I interpreted the question to be, "What do you think is the greatest All-Time Blazer team?"

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loyalty4life

Is Smitty better than Clyde? My extremely biased answer would be yes, but I guess I'd be lying even to myself. Smith is just a favorite -- okay, my ALL-TIME favorite player of any sport. It's just sad his NBA days are all but over.

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Nightfly

Lucas was a better player then Wallace statistically both during their best NBA seasons, and during their time with Portland.

Comparison. Maurice, during his first 3 and a half seasons with the Blazers averaged 18.3 points and 9.7 rebounds. (I didn't include his last year because he was sort of what Scottie Pippin is to the bulls this year, except he wasn't hurt nearly as much. If you include his final season, the numbers drop to 15.6 ppg and 8.7 rpg)

Wallace, during his time with Portland (Assuming he doesn't return, which I don't think he will) averaged 16.8 points and 7.0 rebounds.

Their single season best years with the Blazers comparison (Min of 70 games played):

Lucas's best year statistically: 1976-1977. Averaged 20.2 points per game and 11.4 rebounds per game.

Wallace's best year statistically: 2001-2002. Averaged 19.3 points per game and 8.2 rebounds per game.


I understand that Lucas didn't play for Portland as long as Wallace did, and that might have an affect on the numbers, so just for the hell of it, I'll compare Wallace's 3 best seasons to Lucas's 3 best.

Lucas's 3 best seasons: 1976-1977 to 1978-1979. Averaged 19.1 points per game and 10.4 rebounds per game.

Wallace's 3 best seasons: 2000-2001 to 2002-2003. Averaged 18.9 points per game and 7.8 rebounds per game.

Although I didn't list the numbers, Lucas was generally better at giving out assists as well. Wallace however was a better shot blocker.

One of the things that really sets Wallace back in my mind was his 3 point shooting. It always drives me crazy to see someone from the front court playing in the back court. Lucas's carrear 3 point shooting percentage isn't nearly as high as Wallace's, but he didn't take NEARLY as many 3's. Comparsion:

Lucas' two ABA years 3 point shooting: 5 of 27 .185
Lucas' 13 NBA years 3 point shooting: 4 of 36 .111
Lucas' one and a half seasons with Portland 3 point shooting: 2 of 8 .200

Remember he played in the NBA for 3 seasons (all 3 with the Blazers) with out a 3 point line.

(Wallace's stats are accurate through the date of this post.)
Wallace's 9 years in the NBA: 400-1194 .335
Wallace's 8 years with Portland: 373-1112 .335

So I guess it could be said that Wallace was a better 3 point shooter then Lucas, but in my opinion a PF should not rely on 3 point shooting. I understand that having the ability to hit the outside shot forces the defense to play you further out, but Wallace had the talent to get inside on anyone, and he should have used it a lot more then he did.

Now, outside of pure statistics, Lucas also brought Portland a Championship. He was one of the most feared players in the league, players were actually scared to play him too closely. He made a lot of the best PFs in the league look like little boys. Lucas earned his reputation not from getting T's like crazy, but from being one of the most menacing and gritty players to ever play. The fight in game 2 of the '77 finals and another nationally televised in game fight (details slip my mind at the moment) also made him feared in the league.

Wallace had the talent to maybe be the best PF to ever suit up for the Blazers, but in my eyes, he didn't use it to the best of his ability. He should have played down low, in the paint. He didn't consistently. He shouldn't have relied on the 3 point shot as a PF. He did.


...and that's why I think that Lucas was the better player of the two.

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Nightfly

As a Blazers fan, you should know better then to say your favorite athlete is better then (arguably) the best player to EVER play for the Blazers. Maybe you didn't see Drexler play, but his accomplishments alone should speak volumes:

He's Portland's all-time leader in games played (867), points (18040), rebounds (5339), field goals (6889), free throws (3798) and steals (1795).

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Minstrel

Beyond just shot-blocking, I think Wallace was the superior defender. Their three-year averages are close (though Lucas holds the edge), but I'd say Wallace more than makes up for it on defense.

Seeing as Pippen's prime was never with Portland, I'd say that Wallace is probably the best defender Portland has ever had.

I don't think Wallace is indisputably better than Lucas. But I do think he was better.

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Oldmangrouch

Well, I was very much alive back then. (some people might question if I am STILL alive, but that is a different topic)

Petrie was actually a good passer. He spent most of his career teamed with non-shooters (eg Adelman and Steele) and 1 season with Lenny Wilkens (guess who played the point!) , so that cut down on his assist numbers. Anybody who watched him go head-to-head with Pete Maravich could see Petrie was the better team player.

His defense was nothing special.

On offense, he could take the ball to the hoop, but his real skill was his perimeter game. Many of his buckets would be treys today.

Put it in this perspective: Petrie played against 3 of the best guards of all time - West, Frazier, and the Big O. Petrie was rated just half a notch under them. He didn't have the rebounding/assist numbers of Robertson, or the defense of West and Frazier....but he was pretty much their equal as a scoring threat.

Nightfly

Well, looking just stat wise, Lucas and Wallace are pretty close when it comes to blocked shots... When I was going over the stats, Lucas averaged something like 0.2 blocks per game less then Wallace did, something like that.

Same thing with Steals per game. Lucas is just a couple of tenths lower then Wallace was stat wise.

Lucas also played along side Walton, who is my pick for the best defender Portland ever had.

All this said, defensive skill is difficult to prove with stats.

Wallace may have been a better defender then Maurice Lucas to some degree, but if I was going to pick one of these guys to be my team's PF for years to come, I'd have to pick Lucas. He has the better overall resume in my mind.

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RG

I can't believe LLoyd Neal hasn't been mentioned, the guy was a warrior!

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Nightfly

Neal was a very good back up Center to Walton, but I don't know if I would consider him better then the other players mentioned.

Just a little bit of trivia, Neal's jersey was the first one ever retired by the Blazers.

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Ed O

Did you adjust for pace factor?

The NBA game today is played at a MUCH slower pace than the game of the late 70's, which means fewer points and rebounds.

In 1976-77 the Blazers' pace factor was 110.1. In 2001-02 it was 91.2. (According to BasketballReference.com)

Taking that into account, the stats that you listed for the two players looks more like this (normalizing back to 100 pace):

Lucas: 18.35 ppg, 10.35 rpg
Wallace: 21.16 ppg, 8.99 rpg

Rasheed's still an inferior rebounder, but the points per game swing pretty significantly in Rasheed's favor.

Ed O.

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mook

The Blazers "All Effort, Not Nearly So Much Talent" Team
PG: Greg Anthony
SG: Stacey Augmon
SF: Ruben Patterson
PF: Brian Grant
C: Chris Dudley

The Blazers "All Chemica--er--Chemistry" Team
PG: Rod Strickland
SG: JR Rider
SF: Rasheed Wallace
PF: Shawn Kemp
C: Bill Walton
*tough to leave Damon out, but maybe somebody could create a Blazer "All Moron Team" so he doesn't feel left out.

The Blazers "All AWWW Crap We Just Got Creamed By the Oregon Ducks" Team
PG: Qyntel Woods
SG: Rick Brunson (yup, he played the position at times)
SF: Nikita Murgonov
PF: Gary Trent
C: Joe Kleine

Nightfly

How exactly is a pace factor calculated? I went to www.basketballreference.com, but I couldn't find a definition.

It is true that time the tempo of the game has slowed way down since the 70s.

I just had a thought, I'm going to calculate the total percentage of points each player scored for his team per game... I don't really know what that will tell us, but what the hell.

In '76-'77, the Blazers averaged 111.7 points per game, 3rd highest in the NBA (and just for the record, they allowed only 106.2 points per game. They outscored their opponents by 5.5 points, which was the best in the NBA that year.)

Lucas averaged 20.2 points per game in the 79 games he played in. (I realize for this stat to be 100% accurate, I should calculate the percentage from the number of points the Blazers averaged in only the 79 games he played in, but I don't have access to those numbers, so this will have to do.)

Lucas scored approximately 18.08% of the Blazers points when he played.

Now let's look at Wallace in 2001-2002.
Blazers that year averaged 96.6 points per game. (They gave up 93.7 points per game.)

Wallace averaged 19.3 points per game in 79 games.

Wallace scored approximately 19.98% of the teams points that year.

What does this mean? I don't really know. I guess it means that Wallace was responsible for about 1.9% more of the offensive production then Lucas was.

I guess a problem with this stat is that it doesn't really take into account what the other team mates do for the team... Lucas's percentage goes down a bit because he played on one of the highest scoring teams in the league (3rd that year). In 2001-2002, Wallace played on only the 11th highest scoring team in the league, so his percentage would go up.

I'll do the same thing for rebounding, but not right this moment. My eyes are straining from looking at the tiny print in my stat reference book.

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s a b a s 11

Favorite players team
PG - Rod Strickland
SG- Clyde Drexler (the player that brought me to become a Blazer fan before you know who)
SF- Jerome Kersey
PF- Buck Williams
C- Arvydas Sabonis

All-Time Team
PG - Rod Strickland
SG - Clyde Drexler
SF- Kiki Vendeweghe
PF- Buck Williams
C- Bill Walton

Stuart

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Nightfly