robyg1974

Here's the proposed trade:

Gary Payton, Rashard Lewis (sign-and-trade), and Predrag Drobnjak to the Pistons; Clifford Robinson, Jon Barry, Rodney White, Michael Curry, the Grizzlies' 2003 1st rounder (should be around #4 overall), a future Pistons' 1st rounder (say, 2005 or 2006)

PISTONS' RATIONALE. Duh! The Pistons get a chance to become a legit Finals contender without giving up a WHOLE lot in return. The Sonics are in a tough situation right now, so the Pistons can swoop in and take the NBA's best PG (yes, I think Payton's better than Jason Kidd, I really do) and a pretty reasonably priced young SF (with a lot of upside) for not a whole lot. Detroit should also become The Team to Beat in the East next season--yes, better than New Jersey even; the Nets will have problems scoring next season, and Dikembe Mutombo isn't the dominant force inside that he used to be. Although a Pistons-Nets Eastern Conference Finals could very easily go seven games, no question.

SONICS' RATIONALE. Robinson and Barry both come off the books after next season, as does Kenny Anderson; when all three dudes are renounced, the Sonics will be about $6-$7 mil under the cap, which should be enough to sign a good (not great, but GOOD) player. Rodney White has quite a bit of upside and will be given an opportunity to show his stuff in Seattle right away. The Sonics should be pretty terrible next year, so they should finish with around the 5th, 6th, or 7th worst record in the league. In other words, the Sonics are looking at two lottery picks next year, say, the #4 overall pick (from the Grizzlies via Detroit) and the #6 overall pick (their own pick). Those two picks, along with their $6-$7 mil in cap room, should net three nice players. And the rebuilding process is well underway!

In order to get out of luxury tax territory, the Sonics are going to have to get even MORE creative. The Clippers could obviously use a veteran inside defensive specialist like Clifford Robinson next season, don't you think? And what in the world do the Clippers need TWO young backup PGs (Keyon Dooling and Marko Jaric) when their starter (Andre Miller) is probably going to average around 40 minutes/game? The Clips are the ONLY team in the league under the cap at the moment. Would L.A. trade Keyon Dooling and Sean Rooks (who, like Robinson, is a free agent after next season) for Clifford Robinson? ABSOLUTELY. The Sonics weren't going to re-sign this dude after next season ANYWAY, and this trade helps out both teams, it makes the Clips a lot better for next season without jeopardizing their 2003-04 payroll plans, and it allows the Sonics to avoid getting hit with the luxury tax next season.

ALSO! I'd like to see the Pistons turn around and trade Jerry Stackhouse to the Trailblazers for Bonzi Wells (re-signed to, say, a 6 yr $42 mil deal) and Zach Randolph. As many of you know, Stackhouse has the right to opt out of his contract after next season, and, since he's only getting paid around $6-$7 mil/year on his current deal, YOU BETTER BELIEVE that he WILL opt out! Do the Pistons REALLY want to have to pay Stackhouse the max, or anything CLOSE to the max? [Answer: NO.] Is Stackhouse REALLY a good fit with Gary Payton and Rashard Lewis? [Answer: NO.] Would you REALLY rather have Stackhouse making $10 mil/year over Bonzi making $6-$7 mil/year? [Answer: NO.] Hell, I don't even think Stackhouse is a better player than Bonzi, I'd like to see what kind of scoring numbers Wells could put up if he got as many shots/game and minutes/game as Stackhouse! And Zach Randolph would give the Pistons a nice young player who they can gradually work into their big man rotation over the next couple of years.

I honestly think that the Sonics are going to have to try something a little crazy like this. I don't know if it's going to work for them or not, but, let's face it, the current Sonics team is NEVER going to make it out of the first round, Seattle fans have lost interest, AND the current payroll is on the verge of ballooning over $52 mil (the expected luxury tax cut-off point). PLUS, I don't know if Gary Payton will want to re-sign with the team next summer if they aren't able to re-sign Rashard Lewis THIS summer. The Sonics are CURRENTLY facing the possibility of losing Lewis AND Payton--and getting NOTHING in RETURN! That CANNOT HAPPEN, people! And this deal right here with Detroit may be the best deal they're going to get! The Bulls' deal (Marcus Fizer and Jamal Crawford for Lewis) SUCKS; the proposed Pacers deal (a bunch of young guys who the Sonics will have to re-sign next summer along with unwanted salaries like Austin Croshere and Ron Mercer) SUCKS; the Rockets are apparently not interested in trading Eddie Griffin and filler for Lewis (they really like Griffin, apparently); and the Grizzlies' potential offer (Stromile Swift and Tony Massenburg for Lewis) SUCKS. Seriously, I can't think of any other teams who Seattle will want to fool with; maybe they could get the Jazz to trade them Andrei Kirilenko and filler for Rashard Lewis, I don't know--but WOULDN'T you rather have the #4 overall pick in the 2003 draft over Andrei Kirilenko?

So hey, let's take a look at how both teams would look after these proposed trades.

2002-03 SEATTLE SUPERSONICS

Starting lineup

PG Kenny Anderson (28 minutes/game)
SG Brent Barry (32 minutes/game)
SF Desmond Mason (32 minutes/game)
PF Vladimir Radmanovic (32 minutes/game)
C Jerome James (20 minutes/game)

Key reserves: Keyon Dooling (20 minutes/game), Calvin Booth (20 minutes/game), Rodney White (16 minutes/game), Jon Barry (16 minutes/game), Michael Curry (16 minutes/game), Sean Rooks (8 minutes/game)

End of the bench or stashed on the IR (no PT): Joe Forte, Vitaly Potapenko, Ansu Sesay

Projected 2002-03 record: 28-54 (11th in the West), maybe even WORSE

2002-03 DETROIT PISTONS

Starting lineup

PG Gary Payton (36 minutes/game)
SG Bonzi Wells (36 minutes/game)
SF Rashard Lewis (36 minutes/game)
PF Ben Wallace (36 minutes/game)
C Zeljko Rebraca (16 minutes/game)

Key reserves: Chauncey Billups (20 minutes/game), Corliss Williamson (20 minutes/game), Chucky Atkins (16 minutes/game), Zack Randolph (8 minutes/game), Mehmet Okur (8 minutes/game), Predrag Drobnjak (8 minutes/game)

End of the bench (no PT): Tayshaun Prince

Projected 2002-03 record: 55-27 (1st in the East)

__________________
Roby G.

FJ_of _Rockaway

What you fail to realise is that a trade with the Bulls would/could come with the option of the Sonics not picking up Fizer and Crawford's options under their rookie contracts

So the Supes basically get to rent them for a year to evaluate them properly and whether they fit their plans moving forward. If they do - resign them - if not - save $6M in salary and cut them loose

So it doesnt need to have any impact on your cap past this season

Plus you need a sprinkling of vets - Harrington Ward and Spree for Payton and Potapenko is the trade begging to be done

Say what you like about Spree but he is still a 20 ppg scorer that can defend the perimeter and attract free agents at $4.5MLE where you can still but the good ( but not great ) player that you can also buy at $6M

Ward and Othella are 2 year contracts and Spree is 3

Ward is a defender who never turns the rock over - very steady guard ( without being spectacular ) and is the perfect vet tutor to Crawford

Othella is a PF/C combo banger

You would still likely miss the playoffs this year and still be in the market next summer for a lottery pick and a MLE free agent

Two thirds of your roster would be young / developing players - the other third playoff hardened vets to balance the squad

Rebuilt in one season on the fly

James/Booth/Drobjnak
Fizer/Harrington
Radmanovic/Mason
Sprewell/Mason/Forte
Crawford/Ward

The Bulls deal is superior on a number of fronts - the most significant being the Sonics get young talent in positional coverage where they need it the most - without having to commit to it long term by virtue of letting them go to free agency next summer bu not exercising their options by Oct 31

Better options for the Sonics

And you really want Rodney White over Marcus Fizer?

You crazy kid

Ghost

Lewis and Payton to the heat for eddie house, brian grant and a 2003 1st round pick.how about that.

__________________
Pitt in Tha Garden - 6-0
Knicks in Tha Garden - 12-22

Pitt > New York?

http://www.myspace.com/jmillet21

robyg1974

Wow, guys! Talk about two crap trades!

Latrell Sprewell really slipped last year, nobody wants that dude, and his contract is TERRIBLE. Nobody wants Charlie Ward or Othella Harrington, either. That suggested trade doesn't even work under the cap, and even if it did, it would make the Sonics' payroll go up even MORE, which is the whole problem here to begin with!

Nobody wants Latrell Sprewell. The Knicks were acting like they were turning down that rumored Glenn Robinson-for-Spree deal mentioned a month or so ago. BULL$HIT. The BUCKS are the team that turned that deal down. NOBODY WANTS SPREE. He can't defend anybody anymore, he totally lost a step (maybe two steps) last year. Nobody wants him, certainly not the cost-conscious Sonics!

And BRIAN GRANT? Again, the whole point here is that the Sonics want to REDUCE, not INCREASE, payroll! The Sonics have no interest in taking on Brian Grant and his ridiculous contract. They want to rebuild, and with a contract like Grant's, you can't do that.

See? Like I said, the deal I am positing is the best deal that Detroit is probably going to get. Please keep in mind the payroll problems that Seattle is having. They want to AVOID THE LUXURY TAX, and neither of the trades you guys have mentioned do that.

Although, FJ_of_Rockaway, you're right, the Sonics COULD opt to not bring Crawford and/or Fizer back after next season, I suppose.

Would I rather have Rodney White over Marcus Fizer? ABSOLUTELY. Fizer is terrible, he's yr classic tweener. White MIGHT not be any better, but he's still an unproven commodity. We've seen what Fizer can do, and it's not good. MAN that dude was tough in college, he was the best player in college basketball during his senior year at Iowa State. But he sucks as a pro. His numbers in Chicago SUCK. There's a REASON why that team won only 21 ballgames last year, people! Fizer isn't part of the solution, he's part of the problem! If he were part of the solution, do you honestly think that Jerry Krause would be trying so hard to TRADE him?

White may or may not be a bust, who knows? We DO know that he was considered a project when he was drafted, and that he was stuck behind some pretty good veterans last year in Detroit, which is why he didn't play. But the dude looked pretty tough when he was at UNC-Charlotte, so yeah, I think it's obviously way too early to give up on this dude. But it's time to give up on Marcus Fizer, no doubt about it!

Thanks for the feedback, though, fellas--we need to do whatever we can to spice up this damn Sonics board! It is BO-RING in here!

__________________
Roby G.

FJ_of _Rockaway

Roby

Do your homework bud

Here is a breakdown of my post on the Rashard Lewis thread on the Chicago board

I used hoopshype to check/verify salaries and applied the 115% + 100K rule of the CBA.

Your assertion that the Bulls trade does not work is inaccurate

Your assertion that the Sonics payroll goes up is also inaccurate - the Sonics actually save money this year coming in at around $50.5M and therefore positioned fairly safely in the avoidance of penalties and forfeiture of escrow rebates - which is the real gravy

As to Spree , well his stock took a beating last year because the Knicks blew and Spree = Knicks.

Funny how a year changes things as this time last year both Camby and Spree's stock were off the hook.

But when the Knicks struggled everyone hated on Spree when their problems were a lot deeper and more entrenched rather than isolating it and saying "Damn - its all Spree's fault" He is still a player and 3 years on his contract is now big thing .

As to Ward , he is one of the most underrated point guards in the league that never gets the love because he is not flashy but he just flat out does not turn the ball over , is a pass first point guard and can defend any point guard in the league as good as anyone else and probably better . If you were a purist instead of a hypist , Ward would be more appreciated.

Harrington - what can I tell you - he bangs and is physical. Don't want the big O - fine - keep Potapinky and sub Booth for Kurt Thomas that comes back

If you would not rather Spree,Thomas, Ward, Fizer and Crawford instead of that dogsh*t Detroit trade - I don't know what to tell you

You would basically be dealing Payton and Lewis - your two best players for Rodney White, Michael Curry and a lottery pick - and $6M worth of cap room - when you will have that same amount of cap room with your exceptions anyway ( the MLE and VET = approx $6M ) So it really is a cap neutral exercise if you still have the same amount of money to spend on free agents which means its Payton and Lewis for Rodney White and Michael Curry and an extra lottery pick . Ugggggghhhhh!!!!!

Michael Curry is a marginal starter but White and a lottery pick that have proven d*ck and who and what you really don't know what you've got. Crap Crap trade m'man.

You have no tenure in your vets as under your plan you would have to renounce Cliffy, Jon and Kenny - and what good but not great free agents are really going to want to come to a team with a young core but no vets to balance it and where the onus/pressure is on them to be the sole banana vet .

Say what you like about Spree, Ward and Thomas but that is a pretty solid vet core ( kind of like the reo in your foundations/young'uns ) that is going to make free agency in Seattle more palatable for $4.5M to $6M types that would appreciate the structure/mix in place.

I won't even start with you on Fizer as I found your comments to be of someone that just makes those types of comments on heresay without really understanding him as a ball player and some of the breakout performances he displayed last season

And the real reason why I think any Chi deal is ultimately doomed is because Jerry Krause is no fool and A) probably does not want to take the plunge and sign Shard to $70M and B) thinks that the talent differential combined of Fizer and Crawford is too extreme to give up for Rashard and would not necessarily improve us - me ? I would be inclined to agree in an individual comparison of skills/production ( I think collectively we get more with Fizer and Crawford than without ) but I tend to think that Rashard and Brent Barry balance our side better and provide us with veterans who can help us win now without sacrificing the real young core of our team in Curry , Chandler and Jay

With regard to the Miami trade - you were right . Firstly that was so inequitable it wasn't funny and secondly it was nowhere near close to working under the CBA.

Anyway as promised here is my post from the Rashard Lewis thread below - you should check it out its a great thread with heaps of information about the CBA and BYC issues in trading etc etc

How Seattle management ultimately play this with Rashard could provide a valuable insight into the immediate future of Gary Payton.

The Glove has had a torrid and tender relationship with Management over the years. If Management push ( or is that pull?) the envelope with Rashard and Rashard does the runner to the Mavericks for their mid level exception , or alternatively , if Rashard and Bulls Management can manage to get together on the rebound ( pun intended ) and convince Seattle Management on a sign and trade with young talents in Crawford and Fizer , then expect The Glove to be very very unhappy

Unhappy and demanding a trade . Not because of any emotive attachment to Rashard and issues of solidarity but because they would have left him , The Glove , with young unproven talent and no reliable vets - which means in the Wild Wild West , sayonara Sonics come the end of April

It would be a message to The Glove that Management are committed to young talent , building through the draft and 2nd tier free agency where there is good bang for the buck and that cap room is coveted - not a 34 year old b*tchy point guard that talks far too much in the 3rd person when talking about how love for The Glove equals big booty from above.

The solution : deal The Glove. Quickly . Before he stews and festers and you got to deal with collateral PR damage ahead of next year's free agency.

Here is a quick breakdown of the reality of Seattle's cap/luxury tax position :





*They currently have 11 players at $52.3M ( counting Shard's opening year value of $6M on his new $60M contract if he executes

*They are already over the luxury tax before they add 3 or 4 players to round out their roster - The Cost ? Between $18M - $20M next season

*Next year they have $26.4M for 8 players - a 1st and 2nd round draft pick that will probably take them to around $30M in commited salary for 10 players.

*By letting Shard walk for nothing now and possibly doing the same with Payton next year as well as renouncing free agents like Kenny Anderson to preserve the cap room , they will have around $12M to spend on free agents and 5 roster spots to fill.




Seattle Management's agenda could all be about avoiding the luxury tax limit now and trim overall payroll costs to the tune of $18M AS WELL AS getting $12M in cap space after we renounce free agents next summer and be a moderate player in next summer's market.


The Issues

1. Shard wants money now which is not in sync with where Seattle are under the luxury tax limit

2. Seattle do not want to pay him the money or perhaps are secretly wishing he goes away either for no compensation or in a sign and trade where they can get a substantial "credit" back that allows them to stay under the limit and sign a couple of cheap scrubs to fill out the roster

3. The Glove is sensitive and wants to be on a winner and does not want to be lone banana

If Seattle management let Rashard walk for nothing , they may meet more objectives than meets the eye. Firstly they will have absolutely nothing to worry about in terms of luxury tax penalties this year and secondly , they can try and put the right spin on it to the Glove and keep him happy for the remainder of this season by saying;

" Well Glove , if we had of resigned Shard it would have cost us an extra $18M and this forfeiture would have precluded us from going into the free agent market next year and getting you some help yada yada yada"

If you can keep The Glove quiet for the year and then sign and trade him at seasons end preferably on to a winner ( that should still keep him quiet ) you get talent back and you still have cap room and hopefully PR in tact to make a modest play in next year's free agent class.

If however Rashard wants to be signed and traded to get the most amount of money he can and if Chicago have got the part of a package which may interest Seattle , then you have young talent ( still to be properly proven ) coming back to Seattle which unambigiously says to Glove :

"Look we can't wait for your whiny primadonna a$$ to be outta here as we have clearly made a choice of going with youth and the obligatory vet or two in a trade , draft and 2nd tier free agents in our mix. Thanks for the memories Glove but because we want to send you away with your mouth closed , we're sending you to New York with Vitaly Potapenko for Latrell Sprewell and Othella Harrington. Enjoy playing with Antonio McDyess , Kurt Thomas and Alan Houston . Give my regards to Broadway.Bye Bye"

So there you both scenarios which are largely dependent on which direction Seattle Management want to go in and how the Glove reacts.

I personally think that Seattle Management have to go in a direction of getting some value back on Rashard and The Glove rather than let them walk for nothing as having $30M committed for 10 players with $12M to spend in the 2003 free agency class when you have just let your two best players go won't exactly have your top free agents whoring themselves to Seattle. At best they will get bang for the buck good role playing 2nd tier types who overvalued themselves and are pi$$ed that they could'nt get the money elsewhere .

The alternative is :

- A tweaking of Mike McGraw's trade suggestion

Seattle trades :

Gary Payton
Rashard Lewis
Brent Barry
Vitaly Potapenko

= $26.4M approx

Seattle receives :

Jamal Crawford
Charlie Ward ( instead of ERob )
Othella Harrington
Marcus Fizer
Latrell Sprewell

=$25.7 approx

This gives Seattle a saving of $700K and 12 players at $50.6M. This allows them to fill out their roster with a couple of scrubs and avoid the luxury tax limit. Next year they have around $43M for 11 players with Kenny's salary coming off the books with a couple of draft picks ( 1st and 2nd round ) that will see them at around $46M for 13 players. They would probably have around $6M in exceptions ( mid level and vet ) to acquire two pretty good players from the 2003 free agents class and round out their roster which is retooled and luxury tax friendly with a good mix of young talent and vets at OK cost within a year. Not too bad.

James/Booth/Drobjnak
Harrington/Fizer
Sprewell/Radmanovic
Mason/Forte
Anderson/Crawford/Ward

New York trades :

Latrell Sprewell
Charlie Ward
Othella Harrington

=$20.75M approx

New York receives :

Gary Payton
Vitaly Potapenko
Eddie Robinson

=$24.2M approx

Very strong starting 5 of Payton ,Houston, ERob , McDyess and Thomas with backups Eisley/Frank Williams, S.Anderson, Postell , Spoon, Doleac and Knight. This team could compete big in the East

Chicago trades :

Jamal Crawford
Marcus Fizer
Eddie Robinson

= $10.7M

Chicago receives :

Rashard Lewis
Brent Barry

=$12M



Curry/Blount/Bagaric
Chandler/ Baxter/ Najera
Lewis / Hassell / W.Williams
Rose/Barry//Hoiberg
J.Williams/Best ( resigned ) Mason

That would leave us with two spots on the roster to fill that I would advocate going after Eduardo Najera as first priority who is more of a 3 to 4 with his size instead of a perimeter swingman - rather he is more a forward swingman who defends, hustles and crashed the board ( cheaper option than Harpring perhaps ? ) and the last spot would be a shooter I seek - either a vet like Walt Williams on a short term deal or a young guy I have consistently championed as being a Pat Garrity type waiting to be discovered in Dan Langhi . Probably go with Walt though to keep Jalen Rose happy

And that Ladies and Gentlemen is your Chicago Bulls.

robyg1974

Look, Spree's numbers REALLY slipped down the stretch last year. I thought we all understood that he REALLY lost a step (or two) last year. Why do you think nobody is willing to trade for him?

If the Sonics want to start rebuilding, if they want to trim payroll--WHY would they trade for Latrell Sprewell? Three more years of an overpaid/declining Latrell Sprewell IS a big deal--why do you think nobody wants him?

And give me a break about Charlie Ward, if he were a good PG, why would the Knicks be so desperately searching for a PG this offseason? Charlie Ward at $3 mil/season would be bad enough; Charlie Ward at $6 mil/season, that's terrible.

This three-way you're talking about between Seattle, Chicago, and New York is completely ridiculous, that's all there is to it. Seattle is not interested in trading Brent Barry, his salary is fantastic. He's probably the most underpaid player in the NBA who isn't on a non-rookie contract. He's not going anywhere.

The Sonics would rather let Payton and Lewis walk and use the cap room to spend next summer than trade for the GODAWFUL contracts of Spree and Ward. Othella Harrington, give me a break. Marcus Fizer, give me a break. The only guy you mention that Seattle might be interested in is Jamal Crawford (in the package you suggest).

The Grizzlies' 2003 1st round pick, which should be a top five overall pick, is obviously more valuable than any of the players that you are discussing. Would the Sonics rather have Rodney White than Latrell Sprewell? YES, they WOULD! Because White is cheap with a lot of upside, while Spree is expensive with nowhere to go but down. Rodney White makes $6.2 mil over the next three years, while Latrell Sprewell makes a ridiculous $40.5 mil during this same period of time. Spree makes $34.3 mil more over this three year span than does White, an average of $11.4 mil more PER YEAR. If YOU are trying to rebuild and trim payroll, which player would YOU rather have?

Let's look at the salaries of the guys you are talking about:

Spree = $12.4 mil
Ward = $6.0 mil
Harrington = $2.7 mil
Fizer = $2.9 mil
Crawford = $2.0 mil

All five dudes combined = $26.0 mil

And the salaries of the dudes that Seattle would be trading:

Payton = $12.6 mil
Lewis = $6.0 mil (let's say)
Barry = $5.0 mil
Potapenko = $5.2 mil

All four dudes combined = $28.8 mil

So the Sonics are going to take on a bunch of crap in order to save $2.8 mil? $2.8 MILLION? What? What's the best thing they're getting in this trade? Latrell Sprewell? Jamal Crawford? Maybe if Spree and Ward were in the final years of their contracts, but they're not!

Jesus, when you look at the fact that Payton's and Spree's salaries next year are almost identical, AND the fact that Lewis's and Ward's salaries next year ARE identical--I mean, WHAT? Why would you trade Payton and Lewis for LATRELL SPREWELL and CHARLIE WARD?

Nobody out there is going to take Spree and Ward off the Knicks' hands, not for anything good, anyway.

Again, the trade I'm suggesting a) gives the Sonics the Grizzlies' 2003 1st round pick (#4 overall?), b) ensures that the Sonics will suck so much that their OWN pick will be around #6 overall, c) lets them keep Brent Barry, d) brings back only $4.7 mil in 2003-04 salaries (as opposed to the $22.9 mil that Spree, Ward, and Othella will be making in 2003-04, and that's not even COUNTING what Fizer and Crawford would be making!), e) allows the Sonics to sign somebody pretty good next summer (to a $6-$7 mil contract), and f) reduces the 2003-04 payroll to around $45 mil.

In other words, here is what the Sonics are looking at in 2003-04 after MY trade suggestion:

Brent Barry
Desmond Mason
Vladimir Radmanovic
Mystery 2003 free agent (starting out at $6-$7 mil/year)
2003 #4 overall pick (from the Grizz)
2003 #6 overall pick (their own pick)
Keyon Dooling
Rodney White
Joe Forte
Jerome James
Calvin Booth
Vitaly Potapenko
Michael Curry
Ansu Sesay

After YOUR suggested trade, here is what the Sonics are looking at in 2003-04:

Desmond Mason
Vladimir Radmanovic
No 2003 mystery free agent (no cap room)
2003 #6 overall pick (their own pick)
Latrell Sprewell
Charlie Ward
Othella Harrington
Jamal Crawford
Marcus Fizer
Joe Forte
Jerome James
Calvin Booth
Ansu Sesay

Let's remove all the guys who are on BOTH lists, so we can make a better comparison!

2003-04 dudes after my trade suggestion:

Brent Barry
Mystery 2003 free agent (starting out at $6-$7 mil/year)
2003 #4 overall pick (from the Grizz)
Keyon Dooling
Rodney White
Vitaly Potapenko
Michael Curry

Combined 2003-04 salaries of these dudes = $26.2 mil

2003-04 dudes after your trade suggestion:

NO Mystery 2003 free agent (no cap room)
Latrell Sprewell
Charlie Ward
Othella Harrington
Jamal Crawford
Marcus Fizer

Combined 2003-04 salaries of these dudes = $29.2 mil

HONESTLY, you'd RATHER have the dudes off the second list for $29.2 mil than the dudes off the first list for $26.2 mil? HONESTLY? Let's rank the twelve commodities we're talking about in order of what they're worth. Remember, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between Latrell Sprewell making $12.4 mil/year and Latrell Sprewell making, say, $5.4 mil/year. A dude's contract is IMPORTANT. So, here's how the twelve commodities should be ranked, from the MOST valuable/desirable commodity to the LEAST valuable/desirable commodity:

1 Grizzlies' 2003 1st round pick, #4 overall (you can usually get a star with #4 picks, although Marcus Fizer is an obvious exception)
2 Brent Barry ($5.4 mil in 2003-04, what a steal)
3 Mystery 2003 free agent ($6-$7 mil in the first year of his salary)
4 Jamal Crawford ($2.6 mil in 2003-04 is a bargain for a dude with such upside)
5 Rodney White ($1.9 mil in 2003-04, probably not as much upside as Crawford)
6 Keyon Dooling ($2.3 mil in 2003-04, still not sure what this guy can do)
7 Marcus Fizer ($3.6 mil in 2003-04, not too cheap for a proven tweener)
8 Michael Curry (makes $2.8 mil in 2003-04, then his contract is up)
9 Othella Harrington (makes $2.9 mil in 2003-04, still on the books for 2004-05)
10 Charlie Ward (makes a whopping $6.5 mil in 2003-04, but at least his contract is up after that)
11 Latrell Sprewell (good lord, he makes $13.5 mil in 2003-04, THEN he makes $14.6 mil in 2004-05, good LORD!)
12 Vitaly Potapenko (makes $5.7 mil in 2003-04 and $6.2 mil in 2004-05; Rick Pitino, YOU'RE an IDIOT)

Of course, I'm trying to talk sense into someone who doesn't understand that NOBODY WANTS SPREE and that NOBODY WANTS CHARLIE WARD. Especially not a cost-conscious team like Seattle!

The trade idea with Chicago--Lewis for Crawford and Fizer--I don't know, I think that sucks, but if that's the best the Sonics can do, they'll have to do it. But there's no way that they're going to trade Payton, Barry, and Potapenko for Spree, Ward, and Othella. Think about how ridiculous that is. They'd be better off just letting Payton walk. In other words, CAP ROOM (i.e., NOTHING) is more valuable than Spree! Once a guy's contract gets out of control, he actually becomes LESS valuable than NOTHING! Spree and Ward are both good examples of guys with NEGATIVE trade value.

__________________
Roby G.

FJ_of _Rockaway

Thank you for answering my question as to whether you would prefer to trade your best two players for Rodney White,Michael Curry and a lottery pick next year - and $6M worth of cap room which you can still use being over the cap in your exceptions

If I was Daddy Starbucks I would have nooooo problem entrusting my front office to you

The funny thing is is that Payton /Lewis/Barry still makes the Supes a marginal playoff team shooting for mid level exception and vet free agent additions ( $6M in total ) as much as what Spree, Ward, Thomas, Crawford and Fizer would - or even more so than letting Payton walk for nothing and to be left with $6M in cap room to get your good but not great free agent - which , you guessed it, is the same free agent target for the same amount of monetary availability( $6M )you will have in being over the salary cap

Yours is an immature and emotive assessment on Spree , Ward and Thomas that takes no account of other subtelties that come into play when targeting free agents

Decent free agents would avoid Seattle like the plague with no recognisable vet presence that cn help make a team competitive

The path that you are advocating is the Forest Gump box of chocolates path - you just don't know what you are going to get either in the draft ( big whoop ) or in free agents - except you know you will get crap that won't help improve your team if you let Glove and Shard walk for nix. Its just pi$$poor management hoping to catch lightening in a bottle rather than dealing with reality

And after you got the figures wrong that I had to correct you on - instead of acknowledging this you talk sh*t like $2.8M in salary saving this year is nothing ? Well if trimming $2.8M allows me save close to $20M in penalties and escrow forfeiture - I'll trim $2.8M and make the trade for this reason alone unless the players I am trading are named Shaq or Tim .

Look ... there are players I would prefer over Spree, Ward and Thomas but all 3 are tough vets that regardless of what you say are respected by other players. They provide an umbrella while your young core of Rad, Mase, James, Booth and ( Craw/Fizer?) develop.

Believe me I am a Chicago fan and have seen all to painfully what happens in the new economy of the CBA when you have a bag of cash strapped to your jonson in free agency hoping someone takes a bite when all you have is young blood that are not proven. Playing your young without a proper vet umbrella is brutal

Brutal

2 - 3 years of contracts for Spree and Ward is a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things when realistically you are not going to be a dominant player in free agency with young blood and no vet core and Spree, Ward and Thomas ( or whatever combination of other like vets in similar status ) provide the umbrella to allow the proper and strutured development of the nice accumulation of young talent you have

Remember there are 3 ways you build : Draft, Trade and Free Agency - any rebuilding without employing all 3 in the process usually ends in tears with poor positioning leading to poor team structure and balance

Somehow I don't think you would understand this and I will leave it this because there are a lot of things I don't think you get

robyg1974

Never mind the fact that White, Curry, the #4 overall pick in the draft, and a Mystery 2003 free agent would cost the Sonics SIGNIFICANTLY LESS MONEY than the mediocre/overpaid dudes you're talking about here. And $6-$7 mil is MORE than the mid-level exception by quite a bit--it's a big enough difference to be able to lure a team whose other suitor can only offer the MLE, and you know it.

This is coming from someone who thinks that trading for Latrell Sprewell and Charlie Ward is a good way to save money.

Never mind that Sprewell led his dreadful Knicks team to a 30-win season, and that Ward & Harrington ("Thomas"? You never said anything about Kurt Thomas going to the Sonics!) were marginal bench players who didn't even touch the floor some nights for a 30-win Knicks team. Or that Jamal Crawford and Marcus Fizer were bench players for a 21-win Bulls team. Payton & Lewis, meanwhile, led the surprisingly good Sonics to a playoff berth in the much stronger Western Conference.

In other words, Payton/Lewis/Barry makes the Supes a "marginal playoff team," while Spree/Thomas/Ward/Crawford/Fizer turns the Sonics into a team incapable of winning 30 ballgames in the West.

To be honest, I find your prose pretty hard to follow, so I don't really know what you're getting at here.

I really like this line, it's a good one, thanks for making me laugh!

Players go where the money is. Seattle, by the way, is a beautiful city. We're not talking about Salt Lake City or Cleveland here.

Again, people--I am being condescended to by someone who thinks that trading for Latrell Sprewell and Charlie Ward is a GOOD IDEA! Think about that for a second!

Let's say that the Grizz get the #4 overall pick in the 2003 draft. Let's take a look at the past ten #4 overall picks, just so we can see what caliber of player one can expect to get with such a high pick:

2002 Drew Gooden
2001 Eddy Curry
2000 Marcus Fizer