[shookem]

yeah, i think everyone has brought up good points, big men take longer to develope, he's only 21, VC and T-MAC both, for the most part played on better teams.

and also the original post. I think Bosh is a great 1/2 option on the team, but in order for him to be a great player he needs another legit 1/2 best player on the team. Maybe CV3 can be the third and MoP the fourth, but we really need another 'sorta superstar' to go along with the other 'sorta superstar' we have. look at the Pistons, who is the superstar on that team? no one really, not one player is really that much of a greater option then the other. Rip and Prince, Wallace and Wallace, all these guys are good enough to make their counterparts better.

as a team the Raptors must increase the raw talent on the team (which i think they are).

[foul_balls]

Originally Posted by Rhubarb

I don't think the max contract is that big a deal.

He's going to get, regardless of yours or anyone elses definition of 'deserving it'. The days of players 'deserving' max contracts are over. You pay to keep your stars, or risk getting your behind shown up in the future.

Totally agree. I don't think JJ and Michael Redd are max type players, yet they got theirs. Bosh is in that category of "really good" right now IMO.

Yao Ming is also a fantastic player, but for the last 3 games, he hasn't carried them on his back. O'Neal has Artest, Wade has Shaq, even Amare had Marion and Marbury but his breakout season came with the signing of Nash. Bosh doesnt' have anyone around him yet. T-Mac didn't help Orlando in his last season from going 0-9 because there was no talent surrounding him.

[bigbabyjesus]

If he doesn't show flashes of dominance by the end of the year, I won't be worried.

Yes he would be finishing his third season, but look at the team around him. It's hard to dominate when teams throw double, and triple teams at you. Especially when this is the first time Chris has experienced this, and now, he no longer has Vince Carter, and a great spot up shooter like Donyell who he can pass out to and have confidence in.

He needs someone to take the pressure of him to be able to dominate, IMO. Jalen Rose can't do that. He plays the game in a selfish way. Don't think there is a worse fit beside Chris Bosh than Jalen Rose. Morris Peterson is too streak; can't be relied on as a second option. Other than those two, our players are just too young and inexperienced, or just not good enough.

[lucky777s]

Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and MJ. Those are really the only guys that deserved MAX money over the last 10 years. You could build a title contender around them pretty easily.

Below that you get all-star level talent. Guys that put up nice stats and maybe even win a playoff round or two but cant really carry a team. These guys also get MAX money even though they are clearly second tier. There are just not enough top tier guys so teams overpay to get something 'close' to that. Centers are especially rare so they get big bucks for not even being all-star caliber.

Bosh is somewhere in this second tier. Above the Tyson Chandler and Dalembert level but below the KG/JO level. As a 20/10 player,or very close, Bosh is a legit all-star who will get his max money.

Last year Bosh showed he could be the main man over the last 40 games. But defenses were not being designed to stop him. This year they are, and he is struggling. I would give him this year to figure it out. If he doesn't look any better in April and isn't ready to sign an extension then you feel out his market value.

We won't get a better player for the money as a FA. But the right trade could take us further. And you can only even consider this if Villy starts to play very well.

Or we just focus on getting a number one scoring option on the wing to take that pressure off Bosh most nights. Either thru the draft, trade, or as a FA.

Graham could become that Rip Hamilton type of go-to scorer. Not a 25ppg guy but a guy that gives you a consistant and efficient 18-22 and is hard to stop down the stretch. Graham has the inside/outside package and if he learns to use screens like Rip would not need to be a great ballhandler. But most likely it would have to be another player.

[VTRapsfan]

shookem and lucky777s have great points. If Bosh doesn't turn out to be the next KG or Duncan, we need to put a star next to him who is close to his caliber. The team wouldn't have a bona fide superstar, but 2 All-Stars and a few good roleplayers would be good enough to contend, I think. We could do that through draft, trade, or free agency. Personally, I like the idea of getting rid of one of our extra wing players (Rose, Peterson) in a package with 1 or 2 of the Williamses and the Denver pick for a young swingman with star potential (Prince, J.Johnson, Igoudala, Pietrus, Outlaw, J.Jones, J.Howard, etc.). I like the trade idea because building entirely through the draft might delay the comeback process and we don't want to be coming off another 30-35 win season with Bosh as an unrestricted FA. I don't want to get a second star through free agency because I'd prefer to use the summer of 07 to sign Magloire or another decent center. If everything worked out, in the end we'd have:

PG: J.Calderon/R.Ukic/M.James
SG: J.Graham/Trade/M.Peterson*/M.James
SF: Trade/J.Graham/M.Peterson*/C.Villanueva
PF: C.Bosh/C.Villanueva/M.Bonner/P.Sow
CC: J.Magloire**/R.Araujo/P.Sow/C.Bosh

*if we keep him
**or whoever we get in summer '07

[bigbabyjesus]

Originally Posted by RaptorsCB4

shookem and lucky777s have great points. If Bosh doesn't turn out to be the next KG or Duncan, we need to put a star next to him who is close to his caliber.

For all we know - Charlie, or Joey could very well be that star we need next to him. Joey is the best bet, in my mind. Once he settles down and learns the game more, he will be a very, very good player. Although he is not similar to Richard Hamilton, that is a great comparison by 7's.

[butr]

Originally Posted by Divine Spammer

Patience, man.
First of all, you can't compare Bosh to Vince nor T-Mac, IMO.
Both of them are swing men, they played on a better team than this team (OK, T-Mac had a year with a weak team, but he hadn't shown anything special back then).
VC was the go-to-guy. Bosh isn't exactly the GTG, because players like Jalen Rose take a lot of shots. You can't call a player who shoots 10 FA in more than 40 minutes a GTG.
T-Mac had easier life with Vince around, and afterward he elevated his game.

I truly believe that you'll see stardom from Chris later this season.
His season always looks like a crescendo.
This is his slow start, and even so, he improves his stats a bit.
He has to work on several elements of his game, and he'll become a permanent all-star.
He has nice mid-range shot. However it isn't a deadly mid-range shot.
There is an improvement in his passing skills. He has more assists with less TO. It isn't good enough, but it's something.

Give the kid time, until his rookie contract expires, and then determine if he's max or not.

I am patient. This is where all my qualifiers come into what I write. I am NOT down on Bosh. I know it sounds funny after writing this thread. Especially because it is not his fault. Jalen truly does need to go to let it be Chris' team. But at the same time, you can't let his ENTIRE set of options run to make a decision. We cannot let him do a T-Mac.

In my mind he has to develop a much better post game to become the player he needs to be for this team. I am not down on him but there needs to be consistent improvement. I see the same player as last year. Not Bad at all, just not THE GUY...yet.

And I know it won't happen because it is not how agents and most players work. But I would be thrilled to have him sign for 2 million shy of the max as a sign that he is about winning, not the pocket book. Tayshaun did it. Ben will do it. Chris wants to win, don't take all the pie.

[re-run]

I think a lot of people are worrying just because of the high expectations put on bosh even before the season started...some people looking at 22/12 numbers or anything around that range...something which isn't impossible yet it was expected of him.. There were realistic predictions about his numbers but i think some people expected too much without considering the situation that the raptors were/are in

[VTRapsfan]

Originally Posted by vigilante

For all we know - Charlie, or Joey could very well be that star we need next to him. Joey is the best bet, in my mind. Once he settles down and learns the game more, he will be a very, very good player. Although he is not similar to Richard Hamilton, that is a great comparison by 7's.

I've always thought of Charlie as a super-sixth-man type of player for the Raptors teams of the future, not the star. I don't know about Joey - he might well become a 2nd star, but I don't think he'll be like Rip. I know the comparison has been made 198723 times before, but whenever I see Joey play he reminds me of Artest. While coming off screens would help cover his average handles, I think doing that occasionally and running post plays for him more often would be even better, because it takes advantage of his strength.

[ansoncarter]

Rip can slip through things because he's so slender. Guy is like a ninja

Joey's way to big to play like rip. he'll be bouncing off people left and right

Rip's malnourishment is what sets him apart imo

[SkywalkerAC]

The thing with Bosh is that he's not just a good player at 21, he's a good big man. Sure, he's no Shaq, but he is already better than most lotto-selected bigmen ever get. He's going to average close to 20 and 10 and there are only a select few players in the league each year that do that. When it comes down to it, building a great frontcourt is all-important in the NBA and with Bosh we're well on our way.

The difference with Vince is that we weren't getting these great draft picks to add to a good team. Bosh is going to be surrounded by quality talent that fit with his abilities through the next draft really. Till then, I think we'll all have to be patient and watch our current talent develop and gel together. We already have a good mix but it's only going to get better.

[RebelSun]

Originally Posted by blowuptheraptors

I am not down on him but there needs to be consistent improvement. I see the same player as last year. Not Bad at all, just not THE GUY...yet.

His ever-improving stats would indicate otherwise.

BTW, as of 11/13, he is 17th in efficiency (not per 48).

[SkywalkerAC]

Not many big men are very good at being THE GUY, which is why it is vital that we surround Bosh with other great players. I don't want one guy to be the star leader with role players; I want a team of star leaders. Bosh is on that level already and he's going to get better. When the team starts clicking, he'll be there making a massive impact.

Another double double.

In other news, Elton Brand doing quite well with a good team around him.

[butr]

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

Not many big men are very good at being THE GUY, which is why it is vital that we surround Bosh with other great players. I don't want one guy to be the star leader with role players; I want a team of star leaders. Bosh is on that level already and he's going to get better. When the team starts clicking, he'll be there making a massive impact.

Another double double.

In other news, Elton Brand doing quite well with a good team around him.

After how many years of crap? What I'm saying is if he is not going to be THE GUY, he should recognise that maybe the best thing is to not be a MAX player. I don't want a Garnett either, but Chris should recognise that he is not KG and be happy with 6 and 60.