[speedythief]

^ It's not on Chris to take less money for the benefit of the team, it's on our GM to make the right financial decisions so that we can build a contender regardless.

BTW, which NBA big men are a) worth the max and b) would you rather have?

[butr]

Originally Posted by speedythief

^ It's not on Chris to take less money for the benefit of the team, it's on our GM to make the right financial decisions so that we can build a contender regardless.

BTW, which NBA big men are a) worth the max and b) would you rather have?

Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Amare. (if I forgot someone I appologise)

At this point I would not rather have anyone. People can't get that I'm not down on him, but I want to see improvement. As I said just above, you can't take Chris' avg last year to have it mean much as he was still behind VC and Rose to begin the year.

It is on the GM to make the decision. If Bosh gets to a legit 22-26 and 10 player in under 40 mins average I would not really ***** about it especially if his D improves. However, other players in great situations have taken less for the good of the team. Not paupers, just less than what they could get. It is not a one way street.

I do like him getting to the rim as he has and shooting well from there. He also showed some fire. But he needs to keep getting better to deserve what is supposedly coming to him. I think he can, but it has to be fulfilled.

[ansoncarter]

he'll be signing that deal when he's 22 years old

he might not be a freak like Amare or lebron or wade but he can still easily earn his max money. It's not like guys get 20mil anymore. He doesn't have to carry the team singlehandedly to victory after victory to earn 12mil

better giving a 22yr old 12 than throwing away a couple 6mil contracts and having a team full of Mopetes

[RebelSun]

Originally Posted by blowuptheraptors

I do like him getting to the rim as he has and shooting well from there. He also showed some fire. But he needs to keep getting better to deserve what is supposedly coming to him. I think he can, but it has to be fulfilled.

I think its a waste of energy to argue against him getting his max deal. He's getting it one way or the other. The Raps would be absolutely insane to trade him.

[Crossword]

butr, I know what you're saying and what you want out of him, but realize that Bosh is a guy who picks up momentum as the season goes along. It happened in his first two seasons, and I'm guessing it'll happen again this year. Not as dramatic a change in numbers or play, but I think he'll improve, especially in the intangibles, as the season progresses. He's already demonstrated the ability to be much more part of the team, and his assists have gone up as a result. He can still score and his rebounding has improved, hence the 10+ boards a game.

Either way, it's too early to be worried about giving him a max deal or not. Not only are we just six games into the season, it's not even his contract year yet! Is he dominating yet? No, but there's absolutely no reason to even consider trading him at this point.

[Benis007]

He's got way to much upside to give up on him. I think Toronto needs to follow through on the one "franchise" player with a team-first attitude. (see T-Mac, VC).

[butr]

Originally Posted by Budweiser_Boy

butr, I know what you're saying and what you want out of him, but realize that Bosh is a guy who picks up momentum as the season goes along. It happened in his first two seasons, and I'm guessing it'll happen again this year. Not as dramatic a change in numbers or play, but I think he'll improve, especially in the intangibles, as the season progresses. He's already demonstrated the ability to be much more part of the team, and his assists have gone up as a result. He can still score and his rebounding has improved, hence the 10+ boards a game.

Either way, it's too early to be worried about giving him a max deal or not. Not only are we just six games into the season, it's not even his contract year yet! Is he dominating yet? No, but there's absolutely no reason to even consider trading him at this point.

These are all truths. I was putting it out there (my position) should he fail to progresss. As I said before, I would not entertain trading him at this point.

[ballocks]

given how we've pretty much sold our franchise for a development program around chris bosh, i don't think we have a choice. do we give him 'the max'? we give him market value. i don't think you give him max $$$ for simply being a free agent- you give him max money because you feel he's a max player. considering the way the new cba is written, chris can either be 'fair' and accept his market value when it comes time to negotiate with the raps, or he can decide to play his chips another way (with more risk) and hope to dive into the unrestricted marketplace as a jalen rose/michael redd type benefactor of the "max contract" (assuming he doesn't reach legit superstardom- otherwise he will have already signed the max with the raptors).

in terms of trading bosh, regardless of how he's playing, i don't think that'll ever become a viable option. we have mortgaged our choices, for better or for worse, around the chris bosh axis, and we have to live with that reality now. i don't see much of a way out- certainly not in trade. it's either he plays to potential and becomes our franchise linchpin, or he gets injured or summat and leaves our team in turmoil. imo, the raptors have become chris bosh, in some ways, and we have to deal with the risk that that entails.

is he worth it? that's another issue. i don't think it really matters in the context of this thread, i don't think we have a choice either way, but i'm still considering my place on the bosh bandwagon myself. i haven't seen clear evidence of a superstar-in-development, but he is (imo) already a $10MM man, and whether he eventually takes that figure up to $15MM (which is a big step, no question... maybe the biggest) is yet to be seen. if he stays at 'this' level, offer him 10. if he wants more, and alone believes he deserves more, he'll have a helluva time reaching unrestricted free agency without compromising his reputation around the league and sacrificing himself to risk & pressure.

for me, i accept bosh as a career raptor. i think bosh has accepted his livelihood in this city, as well. if i'm looking at anyone in terms of helping him realize his vast potential, i'm looking at sam mitchell and the coaches. if bosh's talents are still on the fence at the end of next year (or even this year), i'm not looking to trade him, i'm looking for another coaching staff instead. we have to develop chris bosh: this is more on our shoulders than it is on his.

peace

[adhir1]

Originally Posted by Benis007

He's got way to much upside to give up on him. I think Toronto needs to follow through on the one "franchise" player with a team-first attitude. (see T-Mac, VC).

if the team is not winning then that attitude can quickly change...see VC...he was all about this team...he went out and looked to make everyone better...he went out and sold our team to other players...but once we stopped winning and stopped listening to him...his attitude looked to himself first....i think the same is with chris bosh.....


and on the topic of the thread...i agree 100% with butr....Chris has yet to show me that talent that can lift a team to another level, Vince Carter had that talent in his early days...to tell u the truth...AD/Oakley/JYD/Alvin is not a good supporting cast...look where they are at right now...1 retired, another injured, and AD is avging 4.2 points on a preety bda Knicks team...VC made all these guys amazing players...and got them those massive contracts...he made them look amazing...he got them the open shots....they were all nothign before him....he had that talent that took us to the playoffs...he had the talent that could single handedly beat the opposing five players...litterally win the game by himself...Chris Bosh has yet to do that for us...sure he can get his 20/10 but can he get the poitns when it counts...i remember countless games where VC would have like 8 points at the half and at the end of the game have liek 30+ points...and all his points would come in the 4th quarter where he demanded the ball and made shot after shot...and made the defense look stupid...and no one could stop him....Bosh hasnt done that...and until he does that...i really dont want him blaming the raptors for this teams woes...of course we need to put a good team behind him...and i think when his contract time comes...he will have a good team behind him...let me be the first to say that i think Jose Calderon and Charlie Villanueva will be all stars in this league...and so that is a good supporting case..now do somethign with it Chris...

[The Truth IV]

What disturbs me about Bosh is the attitude that he seems to have developed this year. I hope I'm wrong but he seems to think that he's doing his part, and it's his teammates that are falling short.

He needs to compare himself to the all-star forwards in the league, not to his crappy teammates (90% won't be his teammate past 2006). He needs to shoot 1000 mid-range jumpers a day - he needs to work on his post moves and develop new ones while mastering the old ones. Work on the right hand dribble and the right hand hook. Lift some weights over the summer and fill out his frame.

I'd like to see more of the MJ, Larry Bird, Reggie Miller attitude - not the Stephon Marbury attitude ("I'm better than most PGs, so I don't need to get better").

The guy was a project when drafted and he's still a project - I'm afraid that this is getting lost amid all the talk of a max deal.

The Raps made a huge mistake in taking Bosh over Wade - if you disagree then I think you're insane.
Bosh needs to prove something to us - putting up 18 and 9 for a 33 win team is nothing to rest your laurels on. Tim Thomas could do that, Keith Van Horn could do that, Glenn Robinson made a living out of that. Chris needs to step up in my opinion.

[SkywalkerAC]

Consider me insane.

At 21 it's starting to look like he'll get his 20 and 10, if not more, AND close to 5 assists a night. And this really is only the tip of the iceberg. Sure Wade's a star but we'd be struggling just as mightily if we replaced Bosh with him and our frontcourt would have a fraction of the talent and potential it currently does. I keep saying it but I'll say it again- with Charlie and Bosh we're developing an incredible frontcourt; the backcourt is next up (though we've already progressed significantly in this department as well).

Give me another good frontcourt player to put next to those two- make it a center or a small forward or even another power forward- and we'll have one of the best frontcourts in the league within a few years. Rudy Gay, Sheldon Williams, Splitter, Bargnani, whatever.

One thing about Bosh is that he is going to be lights out from midrange perimeter and that should make him one of the more difficult big man covers in the league thanks to his first step and his ballhandling. Those shots haven't been going down to start the season but there's no reason to think that will continue. His body control is going to allow him to expand his skills to an amazing level in every facet of the game. Most big men simply do not have that ability.

Blah, blah, blah. Bosh rules. Have you seen some of the rebounds he's starting to pull in these days? Can you not see how smooth he's getting offensively? Believe me, when he's playing with a team that's cohesive, he's going to be dynamite.

[shookem]

I am falling off the wheels of a crazy train.

[The Truth IV]

SkywalkerAC - I respectfully consider you insane, although I agree with most of your points (did I just call myself insane?). Bosh has the potential to be a perennial all-star, and if he does, and the Raps draft wisely, the team has the potential to be a winner. Bosh is clearly good and has the potential to be great.

Wade is great already - and has the potential to be beyond great (one of the top 2-3 players in the league). There is virtually 0% chance that Wade's career will fizzle and he'll turn into Isiah Rider. There is some chance that Bosh will fizzle and turn into another Big Dog or Tim Thomas - will he put in the work to get an automatic jumpshot? Will he commit to getting stronger over off-seasons or will he follow Jalen's training regimen? Will he develop that killer instinct late in the fourth quarter?

Wade has answered all these questions already.

The choice of Wade over Bosh was a classic "drafting for need" mistake that GMs have been making for 20 years. Why did the Nets pass on Michael Jordan in '84? Because they had a shooting guard. Why did the Raps take Araujo? They needed a centre and he was allegedly the best available.

When you are drafting in the lottery, your team is almost always an absolute mess. So why do GMs make their selections as if they are one piece away from a championship? As if they had 3-4 positions locked down for years to come? Has any team gone from the lottery, added one piece, and transformed into a contender? Ok maybe a few have with the #1 or #2 pick, but with the 8th for crying out loud? You should just draft the best player available - hope he develops nicely - and if it turns out you have two players at the same position you trade one and address your need.

When Babcock drafted CV3, I was happy because he took who he thought was the best player. Whether he was right or wrong, at least he wasn't living in a dream world.

[speedythief]

^ I don't know that we passed on Wade because we thought we already had that role filled. There were a lot of question marks as to whether Wade had the size to play the 2 or the guard skills to be a point, and his jumpshot lacked (and to some degree still lacks, especially long range) consistency.

BTW, welcome to the board.