[butr]

Back when I first came to bbb.net, I was one of the few that wanted to trade VC to get kids to build with Bosh. It was impossible to get the help for Vince and easier IMO to trade VC and surround Bosh with young peers. This happened about a season and a half too late.

Now we are crap. Bosh has been given this team. Rightly or wrongly. A lot of pressure. It's been 2 years in the A. An extension is coming soon. So far I've seen promise not stardom. When VC was a rook there was stardom. By T-mac's 3rd year, there was stardom.

Other than garbage, insignificant minutes, I am yet to see stardom. I have yet to see him dominate a game in the manner that other stars have and can. When does promise of stardom become unfullfilled potential? How long is too long?

I started a thread a while back asking if Chris was a max player. The overwhelming response was yes. To me a player to earn the max has to be extraordinary an the unquestioned rock of the team.

Now I AM NOT saying Chris can't get better, but as flawed as Vince was, especially in the end, there were games where he would essentially win games on his own. Where his talent would lift the team, as bad as it was.

Chris may get to that point. But if I don't see seriously similar talent and leadership from this young man that results in at least a few wins, I will support the idea of trading him before we get on the hook for a Max extension.

[Mr_B]

hitting the panic button already? some things take time I got faith in bosh he shows flashes of what he can do to trade him would be crazy imo and on top of that to add to the problem toronto has no real threat on the team to keep defenses honest when covering bosh at least you had to be somewhat honest when Vince was on the court

[butr]

This is not the panic button, this is a position based on history that I know too well.

It may not come to pass, (and I hope they don't) but if things do not improve from him directly, I am putting my position out there NOW.

[Ballyhoo]

I agree with the sentiment. As yet Bosh hasn't shown dominance. He's a very good player, and I like him, but he can't dominate games. I also agree that if he hasn't shown it by the end of the year he'll never have it. I can't think of any dominant player who wasn't able to do it by their third year of starting, and most do it in their first.

However, you also don't want to trade a player just so you don't have to pay him the max. Ask yourself are the Raptors going to be able to spend the money they save by not signing Bosh on a better player? I'm having trouble imagining such a scenario.

I'd be willing to trade Bosh, but only if we get something as good or better back. And no, that doesn't mean only LeBron or Wade, like some are advocating on the other thread. I'd say there are probably a couple dozen players worth trading Bosh for. However I'd be very reluctant to let Babcock handle a Bosh trade. We'd get fleeced again.

[butr]

Originally Posted by Ballyhoo

I agree with the sentiment. As yet Bosh hasn't shown dominance. He's a very good player, and I like him, but he can't dominate games. I also agree that if he hasn't shown it by the end of the year he'll never have it. I can't think of any dominant player who wasn't able to do it by their third year of starting, and most do it in their first.

However, you also don't want to trade a player just so you don't have to pay him the max. Ask yourself are the Raptors going to be able to spend the money they save by not signing Bosh on a better player? I'm having trouble imagining such a scenario.

I'd be willing to trade Bosh, but only if we get something as good or better back. And no, that doesn't mean only LeBron or Wade, like some are advocating on the other thread. I'd say there are probably a couple dozen players worth trading Bosh for. However I'd be very reluctant to let Babcock handle a Bosh trade. We'd get fleeced again.

No I would look at the possibility of say Bosh + Alvin (~10-12 milion) for a player you want or a combination of players you like and a pick.

At this point and even at the end of the year, someone will still see "potential" as a dominant player.

I would try to capitalise on that value if he does not show something special this year.

[GoRaptors]

Bosh is a power forward. T-Mac and Carter are swing men. It usually takes the big guys longer to adjust and dominate. It took, for example, Jermaine O'neal quite a few years to elevate his game to all star level. Bosh has some troubles passing out of double teams. Once his passing skills improve and the outside shooters on the team hit a fairly high percentage, then Bosh's productivity will soar to a higher level. I think Bosh has star potential based on his play. What might not be achievable is super star potential that T-Mac and Carter have shown.

[speedythief]

There is a franchise player who deserves the max out there we could trade him for? Who?

[butr]

Originally Posted by GoRaptors

Bosh is a power forward. T-Mac and Carter are swing men. It usually takes the big guys longer to adjust and dominate. It took, for example, Jermaine O'neal quite a few years to elevate his game to all star level. Bosh has some troubles passing out of double teams. Once his passing skills improve and the outside shooters on the team hit a fairly high percentage, then Bosh's productivity will soar to a higher level. I think Bosh has star potential based on his play. What might not be achievable is super star potential that T-Mac and Carter have shown.

I thought about your exact example. Some differences. Jermaine saw no NCAA experience and rode the bench for a condsiderable period on what was a good Portland team. It was not until he reached Indy that he got serious minutes. Bosh has had serious minutes from year 1, with a year of very high level NCAA action. His time should be accelerated from JO. Amare was a freak, I won't put him up there like that. He was rebounding out of the gate and scoring by the second year.

[butr]

Originally Posted by speedythief

There is a franchise player who deserves the max out there we could trade him for? Who?

The time is not now, and I'm not fielding calls. What I'm saying is that right now Chris is not a franchise player. Could he be? Maybe.

What I AM saying is that I don't necessarily WANT a franchise player for him. I like the idea of several guys that can play who make 6 to 10 million. Rather than pay the default heir apparent the default amount for such a position, ie the max.

[RebelSun]

Originally Posted by blowuptheraptors

Back when I first came to bbb.net, I was one of the few that wanted to trade VC to get kids to build with Bosh. It was impossible to get the help for Vince and easier IMO to trade VC and surround Bosh with young peers. This happened about a season and a half too late.

Now we are crap. Bosh has been given this team. Rightly or wrongly. A lot of pressure. It's been 2 years in the A. An extension is coming soon. So far I've seen promise not stardom. When VC was a rook there was stardom. By T-mac's 3rd year, there was stardom.

Other than garbage, insignificant minutes, I am yet to see stardom. I have yet to see him dominate a game in the manner that other stars have and can. When does promise of stardom become unfullfilled potential? How long is too long?

I started a thread a while back asking if Chris was a max player. The overwhelming response was yes. To me a player to earn the max has to be extraordinary an the unquestioned rock of the team.

Now I AM NOT saying Chris can't get better, but as flawed as Vince was, especially in the end, there were games where he would essentially win games on his own. Where his talent would lift the team, as bad as it was.

Chris may get to that point. But if I don't see seriously similar talent and leadership from this young man that results in at least a few wins, I will support the idea of trading him before we get on the hook for a Max extension.

Bosh is going to get paid max dollars even if he should cease to improve through the end of his rookie deal.

Is Bosh an Amare? No. Is he a KG? No. VC? TMac? No. No.

What he is, however, is a 21 y/o, athletic, skilled, 6'10, future All-Star PF, that has done nothing but increase his ppg, rpg, and apg every season (including this one so far). He is a franchise-type talent and a rare commodity. He was 29th in the league in efficiency (not per 48) last season as a 20 y/o NBA sophomore.

If he was to be traded, I'm not sure what would be wanted in return: draft picks (would have to be at least two solid firsts), another young PF prospect? Looking at the PFs in the league there aren't many I would want in place of Bosh. Taking into account age, contract, talent, upside, etc, these are the only ones I would take for him:

KG
Duncan
Dirk
Amare
Okafor (maybe)
Howard (maybe)

[Rhubarb]

I don't think the max contract is that big a deal.

He's going to get, regardless of yours or anyone elses definition of 'deserving it'. The days of players 'deserving' max contracts are over. You pay to keep your stars, or risk getting your behind shown up in the future.

[trees]

[Divine Spammer]

Patience, man.
First of all, you can't compare Bosh to Vince nor T-Mac, IMO.
Both of them are swing men, they played on a better team than this team (OK, T-Mac had a year with a weak team, but he hadn't shown anything special back then).
VC was the go-to-guy. Bosh isn't exactly the GTG, because players like Jalen Rose take a lot of shots. You can't call a player who shoots 10 FA in more than 40 minutes a GTG.
T-Mac had easier life with Vince around, and afterward he elevated his game.

I truly believe that you'll see stardom from Chris later this season.
His season always looks like a crescendo.
This is his slow start, and even so, he improves his stats a bit.
He has to work on several elements of his game, and he'll become a permanent all-star.
He has nice mid-range shot. However it isn't a deadly mid-range shot.
There is an improvement in his passing skills. He has more assists with less TO. It isn't good enough, but it's something.

Give the kid time, until his rookie contract expires, and then determine if he's max or not.

[seifer0406]

I think it's clear to a lot of people that Bosh is not going to become a KG/Duncan caliber player. From what I have seen out of him so far, I think he will peak at around 20-22 ppg and just shy of 10 rpg. Is that worth max money? I think so, given how big men nowadays are overpaid. A steady 20/10 player like Bosh is not easy to get in this league. For a team like a Raptors, it is important to keep him anyway they can, espeically even when you pay Bosh max money, the team will still have enough money to sign other players. (After current contracts like Rose come off the books in a couple years). When you look at the top 30 highest paid players in the NBA today, more than half of them aren't worth their salary. As long as Bosh can be durable and have a good attitude towards the team, I would pay give him a max contract in a heart beat. The problem with the Raptors today is not Bosh, it's the team that is surrounding him.