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lucky777s · 12-23-2005, 01:51 PM

Again, people overlook the possibility of trades with the cap space we could have.

For example, since everyone is soooooo hot for Mags we could do a trade with Milwaukee THIS SUMMER and get him. MoP for Mags straight up and we absorb the salary differential. Saves the Bucks 3 mill next year and still gives them an expiring contract.

Or send them Hoff plus a draft pick for Mags if they want insurance at C.

Or we could just give Denver their pick back in exchange for Nene if they see something they like in the draft. Saves them big $$ in re-signing Nene.

With cap space you can be creative and many more doors open up. We can help out in 3 team deals in exchange for draft picks.

Without cap space you can't even talk with other teams about these sort of moves. You are not even in the game.

I wouldnt' be shocked to see the Sonics move Ray Allen or Rashard Lewis this summer.

Plus we can sign undrafted Euro talent that may be out there.

**bigbabyjesus** · 12-23-2005, 01:55 PM

Whats the point of giving up our first rounder just to get cap space a year earlier? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I want to get rid of Jalen as much as any Raptor fan, but I don't like the deal with the first rounder added.

Weak free agent pool this year, and I highly doubt we are going to sign anyone with the cap space we would possess.

Is it really that urgent to get rid of Jalen now? I'd rather just keep him for two years, and see what we can get next year when his contract will be expiring.

butr · 12-23-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballocks

you would seriously give rose up to the knicks/anyone for nothing? you'd let them improve their team (to whatever extent) for nothing? it doesn't matter to me whether we're planning to win this year and lose for another 10 or lose for another 10 before we start winning again in year 11, i'm not exactly in the business of clearly botching seasons and improving the teams of my opponents for nothing. i don't think there are very many people at all- fans or otherwise- who are in that business.

if we were to do it, i guess i could only/easily justify it if the free agent crop were decent. off the top of my head, here's a list:

- ben wallace
- jason terry
- kelvin cato
- tony battie
- bonzi wells
- nazr mohammed
- greg ostertag.

aside from ben, is there anyone on that list that we would want? and how would we get ben if all we had was the typical max contract (at best... and probably not even that) while the detroit pistons had both bird's and a winning team already to put on his plate? you presumably go into the free agent season with one target and you don't get him, it's an all-or-nothing proposition: you get nothing. waste.

man, i would stay away from the 06 pool. if this deal were to go down, i'd give points to the fans and the media for getting their myopic wish granted at the expense of the team. this reeks to me of babcock losing patience, "i can't afford another year." relax, babs. it's fine. don't read the junk, it's a fallacy that the fans don't have enough patience for this plan. don't turn it upside-down for the sake of turning it upside-down.

like i said earlier, i hope it's not true. it just doesn't run in parallel with the work we've done to date. i don't care how the pick's protected (and i don't even like the 06 draft talent either).

peace

Off the top of my head add Radmonovic and Lorenzen Wright for what their worth to the table.

I don't like the idea of giving up the pick, but I think there is a compromise. I have long been in favour of the Jalen for Penny deal, as far back as a year and a half ago. I would truly rather have no recourse than to play Joey in his stead this year. Plus, it would open up trade flexibility not just FA room.

Even if we did not use the space, I would do the deal just to free up minutes. He's been a pro this year, but it is time to move on.

butr · 12-23-2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucky777s

Again, people overlook the possibility of trades with the cap space we could have.

For example, since everyone is soooooo hot for Mags we could do a trade with Milwaukee THIS SUMMER and get him. MoP for Mags straight up and we absorb the salary differential. Saves the Bucks 3 mill next year and still gives them an expiring contract.

Or send them Hoff plus a draft pick for Mags if they want insurance at C.

Or we could just give Denver their pick back in exchange for Nene if they see something they like in the draft. Saves them big $$ in re-signing Nene.

With cap space you can be creative and many more doors open up. We can help out in 3 team deals in exchange for draft picks.

Without cap space you can't even talk with other teams about these sort of moves. You are not even in the game.

I wouldnt' be shocked to see the Sonics move Ray Allen or Rashard Lewis this summer.

Plus we can sign undrafted Euro talent that may be out there.

Such an important and overlooked aspect of caproom.

aizn · 12-23-2005, 02:44 PM

i dont think this deal needs to b done ASAP, but as ppl have said above me, it would do us wonders because we'd have a lot of caproom for next year.

**speedythief** · 12-23-2005, 03:28 PM

I guess the plan would be to sign a free agent this summer and then extend Bosh next summer, when using his RFA status without eating the cap space we have to spend. By getting somebody this summer instead of next we maximize our cap space, seeing as how we can go as far over the cap as we want to sign Bosh. That would be the only reason for doing this deal, IMO. And Rob won't trade our first, maybe Denver's but not ours, not in this deal.

Question is what can he work this summer to make it worthwhile? There are very few outright free agents that would work with our plans, some restricted free agents from the '02 class you could S&T. I guess it would be to make a lopsided salary trade but do we already have something planned, somebody waiting on us? I doubt it.

SkywalkerAC · 12-23-2005, 04:01 PM

I'd prefer to delay my cap space rather than give up a pick. Jalen for Penny straight up I do. Divisional rivalries don't matter so much when you're rebuilding- in fact I want them to make playoffs this season rather than add another lotto pick to their high-potential nucleus.

djmyte · 12-23-2005, 04:23 PM

If Babs does this deal I will lose all belief in his abilities as a GM. That would be two rushed and poor decisions in two years to go along with the drafting of Hoffa. Penny has NO value around the league and neither does his contract since the best Isiah can apparently do is Jalen Rose. Us throwing in a pick is ridiculous at best. This years FA crop is weak. Those worthy of large contracts wont sign with us, unless we are clearly overpaying which isn't in our best interest anyway. We can use the MLE to make another "Calderon" type of signing and we need to concentrate on finding good talent in the upcoming draft. Acquiring talent via the FA process should be pursued after we've established a solid young core(which hasn't happened quite yet as the jury is still out on most).

TRON · 12-23-2005, 04:56 PM

After getting fleeced in the VC deal, getting little more than draft picks to show, I doubt Babcock trades one of those picks in what could be called a sideways deal at best.

We were all discussing the premise of adding a second rounder to the deal and people were still saying that was too much. Personally, a second rounder would be fine in my book, but adding that Denver pick would be unacceptable, cap space in 2006 considered.

this is not to say I am opposed to trading the pick, but it would have to be better than the current deal being proposed. Come draft time, a package of Jalen and a pick, would yield soooooooo much more than it would right now.

Babcock better learn from his quick trigger on the VC trade, sometimes being patient and doing nothing is the best move you can make.

shookem · 12-23-2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRON

After getting fleeced in the VC deal, getting little more than draft picks to show, I doubt Babcock trades one of those picks in what could be called a sideways deal at best.

could you imagine that VC deal turned out to be
Zo's contract, Penny's contract, two warm bodies and Joey Graham....lol, oh yeah and cap space for the trades Rob can't make or the FA's that he won't sign, lol. Babs, you'd better think hard about this one, lol.

Team Mao · 12-23-2005, 05:34 PM

Lucky is right about the cap space giving more options than just signing this season's free agents. The possibility for trades in the following giving other teams some of that cap space by trading for higher salaries.

Everyone says that Isiah is in the drivers seat in this trade, but I disagree. He has to move 2 big expiring contracts this year. A year when the upcoming free agent class is really, really weak. The 2007 class is much better, meaning that a contract that expires 2007 is much more valuable in terms of trade value during the 06/07 season than a contract which expires this season. I don't see much excitement for this year's class: Wallace (not leaving the Pistons), Stojakavic (overrated, seems to be on the decline), Nene (damaged goods, risky sign), Harrington (enough said). Obviously Thomas knows that there won't be a lot of interest in his expirings this year, so it would be better to get an expiring for next year's FA class. Basically they're trying to dupe Babcock into a bad deal. I think this trade/no trade will be the test of Babcock for me. If he throws in a pick (any pick), I'll join the haters, but if he's patient and waits on Thomas to panic at the deadline, then I think it will show Babcock's nerve and that he's a good GM.

If the trade does go down, and Mike James is leaving, I think it would be best to use the cap space to make a move on bringing Ukic over rather than bring in another PG just to bring Ukic in 2007. Might as well start using our assets and having the future grow together. The idea of a Calerdon/Ukic PG rotation makes me giddy.

**Slasher** · 12-24-2005, 11:51 AM

I would in no way make the deal where the Raptors send Jalen Rose and a first rounder to the Knicks for Anfernee Hardaway. Sure Hardaway's contract comes off the books a year before Rose's but is that really worth losing a first round pick. Furthermore, at this point in their careers Jalen is a much better player than Anfernee; I'm not even sure if Anfernee can even play anymore.

To add to all of this, I don't think that the Raptors will have any serious signings next summer – even if they have the cap room. This team is in a rebuilding situation and will still need at least 2 years until any good player even considers coming here.

The perfect timing to start signing talented free agents will come when Jalen's contract comes off the books which is the same time that our younger players will mature enough to put a solid team on the court. With this upside coming the summer following next we will have a good team on the court and will be a more attractive destination for free agents than we will be next summer.

Also remember that Jalen can still help the team while Anfernee is questionable to even play basketball in Toronto. I don't know about you but I don't want another player that we trade for who doesn't want to play here or help the team. At this point Jalen can still do that and giving that up along with a first rounder is too much.

If Jalen is really asking for a trade behind closed doors then a more reasonable exchange would be sending Rose to New York straight up - or if necessary adding one or two second rounders to the table. That's as far as I'd go unless New York is willing to give up one of their young players.

**speedythief** · 12-24-2005, 12:08 PM

Something that has already been mentioned, but is important, is whether or not we think Mike James and Eric Williams will opt-out of their contracts. I think the odds are that they both will. And if we buy-out Alvin that could bump our potential cap space from ~$11M with Penny instead of Rose to in excess of ~$20M, which is about as much space as we could want.

MonsterBosh · 12-24-2005, 12:24 PM

The facts are that Rose wants to be traded and James will not re-sign after this season. If the Raptors don't trade Rose he will just tank a few more games like he did a while back and ended up on the bench. Why did he tank? He did it to demonstrate to the Raptors that his presence will become a problem if they don't trade him .... rather than do the "unprofessional" thing that Vince did by publicly asking for a trade.

Rose knows if he plays out his contract with the Raptors that he will be retiring from basketball because nobody will want him by then. By going to a more promisi

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