Petey

Actually if true, it's a shocker.

-Petey

Crossword

But it's NYP, so we don't have to worry.

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lucky777s

Anyone read the Vescey article quoted at hoopshype?

Has an email from Jalen Rose saying he isn't taking the Toronto situation personal and that he expects something to happen soon, then back to the states.

I couldnt' cut and paste from it for some reason.

butr

The more I think about it the more I like it.

If we can do this deal, we can accelerate our capspace.

With Jalen out it gets our cap number down to 37.5 million next year with the cap to be around 50 million.

PLUS

I think we can package Mike James and Eric Williams for an expiring deal(s).

Clarence Weatherspoon works. Baker's deal if still valid, Norris and Wesley could all figure in.

Chucky Atkins + fodder.

Kandiman and Hoiberg works.

Devean George + fodder works. Plus the lakers would maintain their cap flexibility for 07.

If Rob could accelerate the whole building process by a year that would be fantastic.

So the Vince deal would essentially be capspace one year removed plus Joey Graham, give or take a conditional pick.

ballocks

it upsets me a little to read this stuff. i don't like to speculate or even address these rumours, but i especially don't like how the fans react to them. this particular rumour (rose and pick for penny) is unacceptable for me due to a couple of simple facts:

- penny is almost worthless right now. he can rarely play very much at all, let alone contribute meaningfully. and this while jalen rose still plays, albeit not like he once did. the bottom liine is that this would be like a contract for contract, of course, but our contract would still be worth somewhat more due to the fact that he can still play a little. that's not to be forgotten nor discounted.
- really, the more important point is that we're giving up a player to a divisional rival, no less. we're losing points on the trade as far as it effects this year, but our rival isn't losing a single thing, no matter how you argue it. they're adding a "year", ok, but they were going to be well over the cap anyway, it makes little difference to them, so they're just improving their team without real cost. we're going to let a rival foe do this? this has an effect beyond the roster of the toronto raptors.
- what's more, we're going to throw a draft pick (i think they're all important; i think we got into this position for the sake of adding youth and draft picks) onto the pile as well as if we're not giving up more than the knicks already on the player-for-player end?

i guess we're heading into moderate capspace a year early like this, and the knicks don't want to give us that, but man, the free agent market to come isn't exactly awe-inspiring. and the player we sign is going to eat into our 2007 capspace, no doubt, which was part of the initial plan: make a big splash in 07, the right one, not a moderately large splash in either year.

i still suggest that this is an unfounded rumour- one that, if consummated, will be substantially different than advertised. if babcock decides to come to the plate with this particular deal, i hope to the heavens he's done enough research to conclusively see the 06 free agent pool as more attractive than the 07.

peace

butr

As I outlined the capspace is in excess of 10 million if they can do this plus, they may be able to move others to clear that space.

I would not give up the pick if it were top 14. But in terms of the talent return, I would trade Jalen for nothing, essentially Penny could be bought out IMO.

I would only go through with a variation of the reported deal IF Rob can continue to clear the cap room.

ballocks

you would seriously give rose up to the knicks/anyone for nothing? you'd let them improve their team (to whatever extent) for nothing? it doesn't matter to me whether we're planning to win this year and lose for another 10 or lose for another 10 before we start winning again in year 11, i'm not exactly in the business of clearly botching seasons and improving the teams of my opponents for nothing. i don't think there are very many people at all- fans or otherwise- who are in that business.

if we were to do it, i guess i could only/easily justify it if the free agent crop were decent. off the top of my head, here's a list:

- ben wallace
- jason terry
- kelvin cato
- tony battie
- bonzi wells
- nazr mohammed
- greg ostertag.

aside from ben, is there anyone on that list that we would want? and how would we get ben if all we had was the typical max contract (at best... and probably not even that) while the detroit pistons had both bird's and a winning team already to put on his plate? you presumably go into the free agent season with one target and you don't get him, it's an all-or-nothing proposition: you get nothing. waste.

man, i would stay away from the 06 pool. if this deal were to go down, i'd give points to the fans and the media for getting their myopic wish granted at the expense of the team. this reeks to me of babcock losing patience, "i can't afford another year." relax, babs. it's fine. don't read the junk, it's a fallacy that the fans don't have enough patience for this plan. don't turn it upside-down for the sake of turning it upside-down.

like i said earlier, i hope it's not true. it just doesn't run in parallel with the work we've done to date. i don't care how the pick's protected (and i don't even like the 06 draft talent either).

peace

d_umengan

i say do it...

although i would like to see babcock hold out on this plan for that extra year.. the simple fact is... i dont think the franchise can undergo another season of waitin next year...

move rose.. and trade denvers pick.. have it lottery or top 15 protected... and take penny's expiring contract.. sure there isn't a great FA class this year.. but just having that flexibility to look adn shop around this summer could be beneficial

perhaps next year after this dismal season is over... after acquiring a top 5 pick like aldridge, gay morrison or bargnani... we could be a few mid level contracts away from a playoff spot...

with bosh cv graham araujo calderon and our top pick from this draft.. our future is already solidified and the state of the organization will at least be secure and in no danger of moving if we contend for a final playoff spot in 06-07

that being said... if we trade rose this year... i dont necessarily see a need to trade the rest of our veterans who are FA in 06... simply because the pool would not be deep enough this summer to get more than one impact player

wind161

i resent the fact that we are giving NYK ANOTHER expiring contract for 2007. It's like they gain a draft pick from giving up Penny's contract, then next year, they can trade Rose's contract for potentially another pick?!

Yes, NYK is picking up the salary, but cap space to NYK is irrelevant.

lucky777s

Giving Rose to a team for nothing is an even trade. Because he is nothing to us.

Giving him to the Knicks won't help the Knicks at all, let's be serious. Even if they get the Jalen who scored 22 for a horrible Bulls club. He was taking over 19 shots per game to do that. For the Raps he had to take 15 shots to get 16 points. Hardly a star, but demands the ball as if he were. Very limited offensive game that any player should be ashamed to get beat by.

Raps have 3 solid picks in the 2006 draft. Are we really going to add 3 more young guys to this team, plus Slokar? How will we even play them all. No, I think its time we bring in at least one productive vet starter. Very doubtful we end up using all 3 of those picks this year. Especially in a weak draft.

Give them the Denver pick if it is above 15. Or just give them the 31-34 pick. Those 2 picks will probably yield equal talent.

You never know who will be available this summer. Strange things happen. Who thought Curry would be a Knick this time last year.

shookem

I couldn't have said it better myself. At some point either a pick or a young player is going to have to go. There just isn't enough roster spots and PT to develope three more rookies.

BTW 1000th post!

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ballocks

i don't think i agree with much here but i guess i'll continue since i got started already. too many kids? agreed. but are we going to give one of them up (a pick) just because we don't really need him? what does that matter? you don't justify trades on either side- in other words, you don't just see what the value is for you... because in the end, the value for you is absolutely impacted by the value for your counterpart. it's a balance. we know this.

so we're willing to give new york another pick because he wouldn't help us much- irrelevant. ignoring the fact that the pick is going to a divisional foe (which is, imo, also absolutely critical here), we could use it in another way.

and rose for penny, specifically? we get a "year off", ok. they get a player who can actually play. it's a wash already. i'm not one to throw addional assets (like a pick, wherever it sits in a diluted draft) to the wind just to get it done. use that pick elsewhere. when you consider it would be going to the knicks, of all teams, i'd just stop thinking about it right away. why are we paying extra when, at the very least, it's a trade seen as even to begin with, and in this case i think we're actually getting less back (all things considered) to begin with?

that pick, whatever it is, wherever it is, however it's protected, is valuable. it does not belong in said trade, imo, and i think everyone (fans, team, babcock and otherwise) would almost certainly regret the transaction down the road.

last point: if trades like this are seriously being mulled over by our management group i'd immediately lose confidence in their direction. it would be an overnight change in philosophy, to some degree, and i'm not down with that- not how it would affect us now (although that's important in itself) but rather because of what it suggests about the carter trade last year. that deal was made, allegedly, with a plan in mind and you simply don't jump from one plan to the next (imo) without having been wrong and misinformed in the first place. if "wrong" and "misinformed" are words that can accurately describe our decision-making execs, i would for that reason alone begin to look elsewhere. this would be a short-sighted group to go along with a short-sighted media base, and we need more perceptive and dynamic thinkers on side (imo).

y'all can justify this rumour forever. that's fine. but i've been thinking about this for weeks (as you have, i'm sure) and this rumour is not healthy. i would be patently upset if it were to go down. one word: waste.

peace

shookem

whether or not a pick or young player goes to NY in this trade doesn't really matter.

All I'm saying is that I'd be really surprised if the next year's opening day roster contains all this year's rooks, plus three from the draft, plus Slokar and Roko still in our rights.

That's eight young guys right there! Without considering Bosh, Bonner, Hoffa and Sow.

Our entire 12 man roster would be made up of players with less then 4 years playing experience, I just don't see Rob doing that.

Maybe it's not a pick that gets traded, but something has to budge.

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aizn

we need veterans who take leadership.

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Humpty Dumpty fell down, that's his hard time.
Jack B. Nimble, what, nimble, and he was quick,
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Now little Bo Peep cold lost her sheep
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