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butr · 01-20-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucky777s

I think the CV pick is proving that logic false, at least so far. His duplication of Bosh's weaknesses make it very difficult to play them together and not be a horrible defensive club. It also makes it harder to showcase Charlie. Adding yet another PF with similar skills and problems doesn't seem too smart.

Now that could change since Villy is only into game 40 of his career, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

The Raps continue to make below average Cs look like stars, and average Cs like hall of famers. That's a big problem. No pun intended.

Not that I am sold on Darko by any means. I am just playing Devil's advocate here, like Keanu Reeves but not gay. If Darko turns it around like JO and Brezec and Krstic we will have passed up an unbelievable opportunity to get a legit young C. He could be better than DHoward in 4 years because he has the natural offensive touch.

No way you can guarantee the pick we get won't be a bust anyway.

To me its low risk, high reward. Very unlikely our pick becomes any kind of dominant player in the league. Darko should be able to match anybody in this draft.

Lakers had to give up Caron Butler and Chucky Atkins for Kwame and he was totally on the outs with the Wiz, becoming a headcase with them in the playoffs and being sent home. Darko doesn't have anywhere near those problems.

On the negative side I heard Greg Anthony today say that EVERY dominant C in the history of the league came into the league and dominated immediately. Don't know if that will hold true forever but it does make some sense. That doesn't bode well for DHoward either though. I think the game either comes easy to you or it doesn't. You are either a scorer or you aren't. A defender or not. But you have to at least play before you can be judged.

For a guy who has been top 5 in rookie rankings all year, I don't know how one can criticise Charlie. Clearly you don't pull a 2004 draft again.

I don't know about "his natural offensive touch", mainly because I don't think he possesses any. All I have seen reminds me of Ivan Chiriev. All hype, pure joke.

Hard to believe, but his numbers are the same or worse than last year. I'll pass.

I don't know what you guys are seeing that you don't immediately call him a bust. I mean beyond the excuses of coaches and playing for Champions, bottom line is that Tayshaun Prince as a rookie come young star earned his way into the rotation then starting lineup. If Darko had anything to give he would have earned first big off the bench by now. I mean really, imagine Bosh on that team? He might not be as far ahead as he is now but even rookie Bosh is light years ahead of Busto.

Boris · 01-20-2006, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth IV

I haven't seen Darko play more than 2-3 minutes of gargage time here and there. I think he won't get another contract in the league - no talent. Physical tools are there, but no ability. Has he ever played well at any level? I don't remember hearing reports of starring in Europe, or in any junior world tournament. Can any of the Euro fans confirm?

I saw him few times. He have great potetial, in my mind he have potential to be frenchise but I doubt that he will ever reach his pontential, he just does't have the "thing". "He can do everything but he can't do anything" If you know what I mean. But one thing is for sure, if Toronto get's him, you will have shoot block maschine.

Ballyhoo · 01-20-2006, 07:45 PM

Darko is a complete and utter bust. Look at it this way, he has 112 rebounds for his career (now in it's 3rd year), and Hoffa has 110 rebounds this year, in limited minutes, in under half a season.

However something like Eric Williams for Darko straight up I guess I could live with, since Williams isn't doing anything here and wants out anyway. I believe the salaries match. At least Darko would probably be happy to be in Toronto and out of Detroit.

Team Mao · 01-20-2006, 07:58 PM

I've heard that one of the original offers that leaked is Cato for Arroyo and Darko. If that's the case, then it seems that Detroit is really after capspace. Would you be willing to part with James if Darko was coming back?

I've thought this:
James, Aa Williams for Darko, Arroyo. If they want a pick, start with our 2nd, definitely not our first, maybe denver first.

I think it's worth it to take a shot on Darko. We don't really have a decent centre in the lineup now, and it seems that everyone is hellbent on Magloire in 2007. So we can try out Darko for a year and a half, if it works out, then we resign him in 07, if not we let him go or deal him in a S&T. Arroyo can fill the gap for us at PG for a few years.

By doing this deal, Detroit clears 9 mil in salary next season (Darko 5, Carlos 4), which will help in resigning Ben. Plus they get a PG who has played with these guys and played a key backup role in their 2004 championship.

I think it's possible that Darko's piss-poor attitude comes from the way he's been treated by the Pistons organization, at least I hope that's what it is. I can't recall any other #2 pick sitting at the end of the bench for his first two seasons, the guy wants to play, I'd be a bit pissed too if I was at the end of a bench. It seems some players are more content to sit on the end of a bench for a championship team, while others want the opportunity to play meaningful minutes, maybe Darko is the latter. Who knows, I'm babbling, but the guy deserves a shot.

MonsterBosh · 01-20-2006, 08:02 PM

Darko is 20 years old now at 7'-1" and 250# and in his third NBA season. If he was concerned about his NBA career I think he should have pumped himself up to at least 275# by now instead of only coiffing his hairdo and riding on the bench.

Somehow I suspect that he will go back to Serbia or wherever after having banked his money over the life of his contract... homesick for a different culture than in Deetroit or anywhere else.

Since he still was only a rich teenager, I can understand why he is not fully motivated only playing during garbage time. Also he may not have had much opportunity or effectiveness in Piston practices either ... so he should have at least strengthened his soft body if he was serious about his future in the NBA. He is no Pau Gasol or Nowitzki ... just a standup tall man with no moves.

I could be wrong about Darko .. but somehow I don't think so .... he's immature mentally and physicaly.

spinz · 01-20-2006, 08:53 PM

if it's a trade where it's basically hoffa for darko it might give a kick start to both careers...

darko would come here and have minutes available as long as he shows he deserves them, and hoffa would go to a championship caliber team and learn some tools of the trade from mr Wallace...he might not get a lot of minutes, but he'll get some good mentoring...

on the other side of things, although hoffa is still very raw, something says not to give up on him yet...i know we keep preaching the confidence thing, but i still have a feeling that hoffa could make a decent center in this league...

lucky777s · 01-21-2006, 08:05 AM

I like Hoffa. I just don't think he will ever develop here because of the fans, the way the coaches use him, and the lack of any big man mentor or young big to practice with. I think Hoff would already be far ahead of where he is today if he got drafted by someone else.

As for Darko, let's say he turns into a guy that plays like Brezec or Krstic. I have already said I consider that his downside. What would you give for a 20 year old version of those guys?

I think any one of Krstic, Brezec, or Darko coming into this years draft would go top 3. Top 5 at worst.

People want him to be some kind of proven talent. Well, if he WERE proven you couldn't get him with anything short of Bosh. That's what makes this an opportunity you have to at least consider.

The kid is huge. He has a nice shooting touch. He was a workout marvel with his skillset which is why the Pistons were totally sold on him at #2 ahead of a battle tested Melo that most teams were drooling over.

What he lacks is experience and possibly desire. That's the big unknown, his desire. Keon Clark could have been a perennial all-star with his talent, but just didn't care. Nothing you can do about that. Same with contract year guys like Dampier.

We will see what offers are rumoured for Darko. So far I have heard two that have been shot down as false. One was Ben Gordon for Darko. The other was Cato for Arroyo and Darko. That's certainly a high and low range.

**ballocks** · 01-21-2006, 04:57 PM

honestly, if we (or almost anyone else) had picked darko instead of chris, dwyane, melo, whoever, and he did the same thing for his first three years with us, that would've been like the apocalypse around here. it's actually painful to think about.

the pistons happened to win the title and return as finalists last year (and they've being pursuing 70 w's this season), so they've sort of been let off the hook. i guess that's the way it goes- "bust" is really a relative term, relative to how important said player would be on your roster. if he's not that important, it doesn't matter where he goes in the draft- #1 or... well... # 2- the joke isn't quite so "funny".

but if the detroit pistons had passed on milicic in '03, there could've been some rioting in detroit. that's just the hype machine we live in. milicic was (for a time) argued as a conceivable #1 with lebron (and melo to a lesser extent), and if you had put darko in, oh, i don't know, 45th on your draft rankings list, you would have been laughed out of the club. it would've been hilarious for some. HYPE rules. 99% of the fans had never seen darko in action but most would've easily enjoyed the laugh, anyway: HYPE RULES.

i just wish everyone- not just some people, but everyone- would mature and see it in that light. nothing is ridiculous when you're talking about the future. i mean, it's uncertain enough, and in this case especially uncertain since darko was an unseen entity by most. most people (fans, journalists, and evidently general managers) were relying exclusively on the hype machine. that's hard to grasp given how many times it's blown up in someone's face.

in fact, i remember leo rautins talking about darko- this is mr orange- and he was so excited by his game and potential in the pros that even he saw darko as a clear #2. melo was his #3. i remember swirsky asking him why he loved milicic so much and leo was just like, "he can do it all. he's like nothing anyone's ever seen in this league."

now, this isn't meant to suggest that darko is a full-fledged "bust"- it could've been the way they've developed him in detroit that's led to his uselessness- but if not, detroit has really wasted this guy's talent and his earlier perceived value around the league. it's one or the other. if they loved him and thought he could contribute to their team, they made a mistake since they can't seem to use him for much. if they knew they weren't going to use him, they should've found a way to move him for established talent at the time or... well, something rather. it's one or the other, so it's been (imo) a management mistake on some level.

but i wouldn't mind making another small comment on the original point: the hype. i'm not going to prop myself but on '03 lottery night, when we were uncovered as #4, the pained (though jovial) look on vince's face made me want to vomit, for real. it was accepted that bosh wasn't as ready for nba stardom as melo, sure, but he was widely seen as a better player "down the road"- and that's taken, what two years? melo's great, i know, but i'm just saying that bosh is absolutely in his category already- and we viewed #4 (through vince's eyes) as a disappointment of sorts. that's unsettling. HYPE RULES.

while pat riley, the same year, was clearly upset in miami after they ousted us in a late-season game, virtually cementing their position at 5 in the draft (and ours at 4). they wanted bosh (by all accounts) and chris was essentially given his raptor uniform that night. they had to settle for dwyane wade, the "step down".

HYPE RULES.

don't let it rule you.

peace

BLUNTMAN · 01-21-2006, 05:06 PM

rafael araujo got his first block of the season in the 23rd game

at least darko has the potential to be good

i would`nt let araujo detail my car without adult supervision

Team Mao · 01-24-2006, 05:19 AM

I posted this on the Detroit board as well, combining our two favourite deals for one super-duper deal. Flame away f***ers.

Quote:

Re: Darko
Hey,
Look, I think everyone in the league is know fully aware that if Darko succeeds, it won't be with Detroit. The guy seems to hate the Pistons orginization for having to sit on the bench for the past few seasons. I understand why he has been on the bench, because the team is competing for championships every year, but never in the history of #2 picks has one of them had to sit on the bench for his first two seasons.

So here is my idea, maybe not what you're looking for but give me some feedback, let me know:

TO sends
Mike James, Jalen Rose, Morris Peterson, Rafael Araujo, Denver 1st, TO 2nd
Receives
Penny Hardaway, Darko, Nate Robinson

Why for TO? Capspace and Darko, we can sign someone or make a deal for someone with our capspace better than what we would get with either of those picks.

Detroit Sends
Darko, Arroyo
Receives
MoPete, Mike James, Araujo, TO 2nd

Why for Detroit? MoPete gives Detroit a solid backup at the 2/3 position who plays good defence and can shoot the 3 really well, roughly the same salary as Arroyo but shorter deal. Mike James gives you a great backup point who can get hot really fast and plays good d. Araujo gives you a big body underneath for whatever minutes might be available, he's on rookie contract for a year longer than Darko and he'd probably re-sign with Detroit, something that Darko won't do. Detroit can re-sign James if they want or deal him in a S&T. They get a high second round pick, which they can maybe use on a Euro prospect and let him develop there rather than bring in a late first rounder and have him sit on the bench and not play while collecting a paycheck.

NY sends
Hardaway, Robinson
Receives
Jalen Rose, Arroyo, Denver 1st

New York gets their pick along with a pass first PG and Jalen. They lose Robinson in the deal but can get someone with the Denver pick this year.

tranjsaic · 01-24-2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucky777s

On the negative side I heard Greg Anthony today say that EVERY dominant C in the history of the league came into the league and dominated immediately. Don't know if that will hold true forever but it does make some sense. That doesn't bode well for DHoward either though.

How does that not bode well for DHoward? 1st off he is not a true center...yet. 2nd he came out in an era when big men skipped college, so he has alot more learning. From your logic Garnett and J'Oneil should be sucking now, because when they came out they were not dominating immediately.

lucky777s · 01-24-2006, 09:20 AM

First, its clearly not 'my logic' since I am quoting Greg Anthony and explicitly say I don't know if that will continue to hold true.

Second, I would not say that JO or even KG are truly dominant players in the league. Certainly not in the same way that Shaq, TD, Olajuwon, or even Ewing were. JO and KG are not even Cs so I don't get your point since the Anthony quote was clearly about Cs.

Third, guys like Darrel Dawkins and Moses Malone came directly out of HS at C so the HS thing is not 'new'. Just under 19 &15 for Moses as a rook. Darryl was a slower starter and never had a dominating year.

charlz · 01-24-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blowuptheraptors

No picks at all. Hoffa straight? Cap doesn't work, they'd have to add filler.

I say he is the bust of busts.

Bosh, Melo, Wade, Hinrich. Whoa.

Hoffa + filler would be my best. And that would not get it done. Great pick Joe.

the amazing thing there is that DET is still so good having passed on those players.

no_free_baskets · 01-25-2006, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucky777s

Third, guys like Darrel Dawkins and Moses Malone came directly out of HS at C so the HS thing is not 'new'. Just under 19 &15 for Moses as a rook. Darryl was a slower starter and never had a dominating year.

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