speedythief

I don't mind the Carter trade or the Hoffa pick as much as most. If you want to put those two decisions aside anyways, yes, Babcock was doing a good job. That's why his firing was a shock, and nobody should pretend like it wasn't.

narrator

Cojones would have been trading 7 and 16 for 3. Or trading 7 and 16 for Magloire. Both of which would have addressed needs far more pressing than adding another PF. Cojones is the ability to adjust your plan when new opportunities arise rather than obstinately sticking with your guns.

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butr

Cojones is picking a guy no one had on the board at 7, and it worked out. 7 and 16 for Mags is suicide not cojones.

7 and 16 assuming they take Paul is amazing but your rebounding and frontcourt is that much ****tier without CV this year. It is not cojones to make 7 and 16 for 3, it is cojones to take 7 and 16 for 3.

JuniorNoboa

Cojones is you posting that on draft day.

Therefore, no cojones for you.

SkywalkerAC

He made a great sacrificial GM anyway, guiding us through some very difficult rebuilding years to be let go when the time was right and someone better available to take the job for the long haul.

__________________
AC

narrator

Didn't know this site existed at the time, before I registered.

So no cojones for you, either.

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narrator

Rebounding and frontcourt play (not including Bosh) is terrible anyway. While Villanueva has worked out a thousand times better than I thought he would (cojones is also being able to admit when you were wrong, and I was wrong about Villanueva), I'd still rather have Paul, who has made what is clearly one of the not good teams in the league a legit playoff contender. You think he wouldn't have been able to do that in Toronto, with Bosh, Peterson, and Rose (at the time) as running mates? Paul changes the entire direction of the team; Villanueva is (for now) another nice piece.

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GuelphRaptorsFan

- He drafted Carlie V who is widely regarded as a top 3 rookie

No arguments there, a good move.

- He hired Sam who Bosh has gone on record as saying he wants to keep him around

Fair enough, but its not as if Sam has turned the team around through his miraculous coaching. The players like him, and he has his good points, but his league-wide reputation is abysmal and I'm not convinced any other player-friendly coach wouldn't have done just as well with this roster.

- NO PG -> Rafer via FA -> James out of thin air.

Three possible scenarios:
NO PG -> Rafer via FA -> James (signed to a deal)
NO PG -> Rafer via FA -> James -> NO PG (James becomes unrestricted) -> NO PG
NO PG -> Rafer via FA -> James -> NO PG (James becomes unrestricted) -> James
but the last scenario is the same as
NO PG -> NO PG (James becomes unrestricted) -> James
and the second last scenario is the same as
NO PG
both of which don't involve all the money blown on Rafer and all the drama and intrigue he brought to town.

- No cap space but still got Bonner and Calderone under contract with MLE.

Pfft. You and I could have done that.

- Hired Wayne Embry (who Colangelo said was the only reason he even considered the job)

No arguments there.

- Roko with a 2nd round DP.

An unproven commodity at this point, I'll give him props for this if and when Roko turns into something at the NBA level in a Raptor uniform.

- Mishandling the Vince Carter situation, throwing him away and getting basically nothing in return

Oh, wait, this one wasn't on your list, sorry.

charlz

wow there are so many things here I would like to respond to - but let me sum it up by saying this.

Babs was hired as a <b>"rebound" GM</b> like after you are in relationship for a long time and it tanks before you get serious about someone else you just have a fling to change your perspective and unless lightning strike it won't last.

Well MLSE must have decided that <b>no good GM would come in</b> (they got majorly snubbed) with all that Cap Crap and take the heat of loosing - so they got <b>babs</b> as a goat to weather the storm while contracts expires and loosing piled up. Now that there is youth and cap space it is a more attractive job - but in hindsite <b>Babcocks</b> last year on the job was very formitable... event though they used his career as a means of entertainment.

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Gilgamesh

Babcock was certainly improving as a GM but he wasn't a genius.

When you have team losing the way the Raps were changes have to be made.

Babcock became a scapegoat for the Raptor's failures.

The Hoffa pick probably had more to do with McCloskey (wasn't he championing Hoffa?) than Babcock. Although, in the end Babcock pulled the trigger so that pick was also his fault. But one has to wonder if an experienced GM would have done that even if he had inherited the same scouting staff and McCloskey. Don't forget McCloskey also championed Babcock and it's not like McCloskey is an idiot. Afterall, didn't he build the late 80s Pistons?

The Vince Carter trade in hindsight is just horrible. But when the trade was made Vince was performing like crap. We got an Eric Williams who was getting 14.3 ppg a night (Vince was getting 16 ppg), a backup center, and two picks. Even though everybody knew Vince was tanking it nobody would have thought he would explode like he did when he went to the Nets. Mitchell also never played Williams (either of them) and still doesn't with Eric. Zo was never going to play here his contract was just a filler. At the time, the trade wasn't as bad as what hindsight tells us now. Hindsight is a *****. You are hardly ever going to get equal value when you trade a guy like Vince especially a Vince who was tanking it. The question then is were there better trades on the table at that time? Babcock should have traded Vince in the offseason. I thought it was clear then that Vince didn't want to play here anymore but the Raps didn't want to give up on their "celebrity".

Plus, the media criticism made it even easier to accept Babcock as the scapegoat.

Anyways, Babcock shouldn't have been hired as Grunwald's successor. He was set up for failure and his lack of experience (I believe) was one of the reasons why he was hired because if the Raps did bad MLE had an excuse. Of course when Babcock drafted Hoffa and did the VC trade it gave MLE even more excuses to scapegoat Babcock. But the real question is who hired Babcock? Shouldn't that person be responsible as well? If this Colangelo experiment doesn't work out some of the brass sitting high and mighty in the MLE offices better be packing their things because there are no excuses now.

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narrator

That's an excellent, excellent point. Richard Peddie needs to be fired ASAP.

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The Truth IV

Let's get a few things straight - before you guys drive me insane.

There was never any offer of the 7 and 16 for the #3. No chance at Chris Paul whatsoever.

Babcock didn't have to trade VC - the deal was terrible and was the only reason why he
was fired.

Drafting Hoffa was not a factor - no one on this board ever heard of Iguodola on
draft night and with Vince, Jalen, MoPete already in the fold, everyone who have had
kittens if Babcock drafted AI. He rolled the dice on a big man, came up empty (as is
often the case with big guys) and let's leave it at that.

I just got back from the Dominican Republic after 2 weeks and I miss all the nonsense you guys
post on this board. By the way, I wore a Raptors shirt around the resort and all the locals would shout out "Charlie VILLLLLAAAANOOOOAAAAYYYYVAAAA!". They love CV down there.

SkywalkerAC

Of course we knew who Iguodala was. Unfortunately our team was so barren of big men that we were more concentrated on guys like Biedrins, or at least I was. Ideally Vince should have been traded on draft night and Iggy should have been selected with our pick but that would have required a significantly earlier GM switch. Whatever.

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AC

4BiddenKnight