shookem

I don't think someone should need the support of a completely autonomous industry to do their job.

C'mon Speedy, support of the media?

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adhir1

do u think it was babcock making those moves? I have my conspiracy theories with that one. i think all the "good" moves we saw babcock make with the draft, signing jose, getting mike, i think they were all Embry...but thats just me and my conspiracy theories....

speedythief

If the Carter trade had've been praised, do you think he'd still have his job? No doubt.

He was never given a chance to succeed by just about anyone other than informed fans, who are a minority.

drlove_playa

Why would the carter trade be prasied?? It was one of the worst trades in NBA history. Giving up a superstar for 2 late 1st round picks in 2 weak drafts that had no star potential.

Sure you can say Carter had to "value".. but come on.. it is vince carter. Every GM in the league would have give him 2 first round picks and a couple garbage players for him. If you argue that they wouldn't, then you are a moron, plain and simple.

shookem

I agree, I think you put too much emphasis on not being accepted by people who are paid to be critics.

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trick

IMO, no matter how good of a job Babcock did in his 1.5 years here, he would still have been fired if it meant acquiring Colangelo, who is the reigning Excecutive Of The Year. Why settle for a sophomore GM who was still on the learning curve if you can get an established, well-known name in the office?

Granted at the time of the firing I was as shocked as anyone when it came out of the blue. I too thought Babcock was making strides after having a inadequate rookie year, and felt his firing was premature. However, in hindsight, the firing was done for greater acquisitions.

Would we have as good of a chance of acquiring Colangelo if we waited for his contract to run out in Phoenix? I doubt it.

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speedythief

We'll never know. Towards the end of his tenure (year 2) I think Rob was just another voice. I think Embry might've had the final say on everything. I think it was Rob, Pete, and Scott vs. the World. All the bad moves will be attributed to Rob and all the good ones to other people, but we don't know who was really calling the shots.

We do know that the Araujo pick was a consensus, but can you blame Rob for it? Because it is increasingly evident that when Rob was hired, MLSE decided the plan was NOT to trade Vince Carter, but to continue to build around him. Drafting Araujo instead of Iguodala (who was the consensus pick at that spot) was in a design to help fortify our weakest position rather than start to build something for the future. So in a way it is MLSE's fault for failing to recognize that the Carter era was over. Everyone saw draft night with all our brass happy with the pick--if there were people in that war room who didn't want him they have kept their mouths shut about it to this day.

I think the important part was getting Carter out of town and clearing his salary to spur the rebuilding project. The only other offer on the table we knew of, and know of to this day, was Portland's offer of SAR, Derek Anderson, and filler for Rose and Carter. No picks involved, Anderson's contract being a longer one. What other offers are any of us aware of? As far as we know Rob got lowballed by everyone in town. We wanted two things: to make our salary situation better and to get younger. We accomplished both goals with the trade.

Could Rob have gotten more? Maybe if he had waited until the deadline, but how much damage would Carter have done to his reputation by then? He was playing the worst basketball of his career. I think the idea was that he would probably play better somewhere else, but that he would continue to be soft and would shy away from a leadership role. You never get dollar-for-dollar value for a superstar (re: McGrady, Francis, Shaq O'Neal, etc.). We might've been lucky to be getting $0.50.

Now, the interesting piece of this trade was the Mourning contract. It was evident that he wanted to continue his career. Rob recognized that and wanted to push Mourning to veto his contract. MLSE, in their infinite wisdom, thought Mourning would retire with a full paycheque. So MLSE went over Rob's head and made a $11M buy-out, making the deal seem even worse. Rob might've cleared Zo's contract and then done something with Eric afterwards.

Answer me this: would you have traded Carter for expirings and late firsts? It's not such a bad deal, really. Orlando is happy to have anything left over from the McGrady deal. They got practically nothing (in the accurate sense, not the exaggerated sense) for Francis, just malcontent Ariza. The Lakers let Grant and Butler go and now they want to run Odom out of town. Joey Graham could become a nice player and clearing Rose's salary should help us this summer.

Bottom line: no better deals were out there, so we took what we could get. And we're not much worse off for it anyways. We were a 33 win with him, a 33 win team without him, and this year we're probably going to be about the same again.

I don't, we're talking about MLSE, who from all accounts don't know their *** from a basketball. The media has long played a major role in GMing the Leafs. No different with the Raps. Anything that affects their bottom line, especially the perception that our franchise is "lost", will be something they take notice of and, at worst, believe.

I would fire Rob to hire Bryan. "The grass is always greener..." but I would trade you a $10 for your $20, it's common sense.

drlove_playa

And really how did the Carter trade clear his salary? We got ZO, EW and AAW.. None of which were expiring.. So that doesn't make any sense. We only really got two late 1st rd picks for a star. I would let Carter rot on the bench before I let him go for that. or I would tell Carter to play like the star he is, or it is going to be harder to trade him..

Rob sucked.. He would be a good scout.. but he made a garbage GM. Sure he did get Mike James.. but who is the person that signed Alston to that big deal? Yes it was Rob. So he just corrected his own mistake.. He was afraid to make a move, which is why he was fired.

speedythief

They were expiring when we wanted them to expire. Carter's contract went one year past next summer. which was Rob's free agent time. Everything revolved around that upcoming summer. Jalen, Eric, Mo, Bonner, Sow--all the contracts lined up to expire at that time.

drlove_playa

That maybe so.. but I would rather wait another year than get nothing for a superstar. And I don't think anyone would argue with that.

speedythief

Are we in bad shape?

trick

Carter needed to go in the worst way that year. Whether it'd be best to have traded him as early as draft day or as late as the deadline is another argument, but no way would both sides (the team and Carter) could tolerate having him around for another year. It'd be a waste of time for both sides.

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