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Old 03-08-2006, 12:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
charlz
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Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

To all you whiners who wanted to see <b>D. Marshall</b> Stay look at his numbers this year on a decent team.
(1-9) last night vs. Raps and shooting < 38% from 3.

- He drafted <b>Carlie V</b> who is widely regarded as a top 3 rookie
- He hired <B>Sam</b> who Bosh has gone on record as saying he wants to keep him around
- NO PG -> <b>Rafer via FA</b> -> James out of thin air.
- No cap space but still got <b>Bonner and Calderone</b> under contract with MLE.
- Hired <b>Wayne Embry</b> (who Colangelo said was the only reason he even considered the job)
- Roko with a 2nd round DP.
----
in fact since the <b>Carter</b> Deal (Which I think was not his fault people forget that there were no offers for Vince) - Babs had a stellar year.
Wayne was not able to unload <b>Eric Williams</b> either?!??!

MY THEORY?
(a) Hoffa trading/waiving/sending him to D-LEAGUE <- was not willing to do any of those
(b) Would not agree to Rose to NY -> for denver pick.

Honestly though if this team were the exact same and all you did was Swap <b>Igudala</b> for <b>Hoffa</b> does babs get fired?
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Old 03-08-2006, 01:03 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

i'll be wearing a Iggy jersey, praising babcock...
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Old 03-08-2006, 06:52 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

There are only one of two possible reasons that Babcock got fired:

1. The Raps knew that Colangelo might be interested in a new job, but Colangelo being a man of honour, would not negotiate while another man was employed.

2. He would not pull off the Rose trade.. instead wanted to keep the draft pick.
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Old 03-08-2006, 06:52 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

if the raps had ig instead of hoffa, we wouldnt be having this thread, the raptors would be a pretty good team and we would be talking about trying to get homecourt for the playoffs
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Old 03-08-2006, 07:03 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

If Walsh hadn't have gotten Peja for a non-playing Ronnie, than it would have made things a little better, but I think the firing of Babcock has less to do with the on-court product he put out there and more to do with the backroom politics he couldn't handle.

-also Sam is a horrible coach, Bosh likes him because Bosh knows him. How many years has Bosh been in the league and how many of those was Sam his coach for? Yeah, that's why.

-The James trade was great, but Babs gave waaay too much money to Rafer in the first place. A five-year deal to a streel baller back-up PG? Dumb move that showed everyone how capable Babs was at using the FA market.

-I don't think Bonner had many offers last summer, and I'm almost sure no one was willing to pay him as much as Babs was (otherwise he'd be playing there).

Last edited by shookem : 03-08-2006 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 03-08-2006, 07:25 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

The Raptors were in a tough position when Babcock took over. This team wasn't going anywhere fast, and that's one of the reasons why there wasn't a lot of interest in the job. Babcock did a lot of the dirty work, and now with this team clearly having a good future ahead of them, MLSE axes him in favour of a high profile GM, ala BC.
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Old 03-08-2006, 09:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

What will Colangelo do to take the Raptors to the next level?

- Make a draft pick winner?

- Trade Araujo, Bonner, Sow, Woods for real basketball players?

- Trade MoPete for a more athletic body?

- Trade away Ukic and Slokar for US players?

- Replace Mitchell and his coaching staff?

- Trade James for a real point guard?

- Trade Bosh if he wants to go back Stateside?

- Help arrange for the Raptor franchise to go to Las Vegas?
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Old 03-08-2006, 10:03 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtron
if the raps had ig instead of hoffa, we wouldnt be having this thread, the raptors would be a pretty good team and we would be talking about trying to get homecourt for the playoffs
I didn't realize Andre Iguodala was Jesus Christ reincarnated.
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Old 03-08-2006, 10:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

Babcock was not a genius at any time. Ever. He never will be. He has no cojones, no willingness to do anything to help the team. He didn't have the stones to tell Carter where to go and instead made a terrible trade. He could have backed out of the trade but now the Raptors are stuck paying Mourning to not play for them. Just a horrible handling of the situation all around. He drafted Araujo, one of the all-time worst picks. He made good with Villanueva but appears to have missed (for now) with Graham. Slokar and Ukic are unknown quantities and, until they show something in the NBA, they can be categorized as bad picks, too.

Signing Bonner was stupid. He was useful for one year but, as can be seen now, is nothing more than white Donyell Marshall. Oh, and he's the same as Villanueva except Villanueva has about 1000 times more talent.

Calderón was a good pick-up and James was outright thievery (Carroll Dawson should be ashamed of himself). But that doesn't change the fact that Babcock knew nothing of free agency (when Alston and Bonner are your 2 signings, you have major, major problems) and his draft record was hit (something decent) and miss (by 2 parked zambonis). He was a terrible trader (the James deal notwithstanding) and he was unwilling to acknowledge that the Raptors can't field a team of 10th graders and expect to compete in the NBA. You need veterans! And Babcock wasn't going to bring veterans in, just in case they disrupted his marvellous plan. Babcock didn't have the stones to play politics nor did he have the stones to fight back. He was unable to pull the trigger on the Rose deal and who knows what else.

Colangelo is the type of GM they should have gone after from the beginning. But MLSE is more interested in making money and letting Peddie think he is a sports mogul. They should spend $40 and get him NBA Live 06 to let him act out his fantasies and leave the real team to someone who knows what they're doing: Colangelo.
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Old 03-08-2006, 01:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

i don't know if 'genius' is the right word here but i agree- this team is looking better by the day primarily due to babcock's plan. it's just now starting to work itself out in front of all of us, the irony being that it's the "all of us" not including him.

it upsets me to see what's happened here, to be honest, because the critics and perimeter fans will not have learned their lesson. i mean, considering the headlines being published now, the public support of wayne embry and his 'genius moves' to get us where we are, no one'll learn. no one'll learn at all.

the early criticisms of the babcock reign will appear justified now, no matter what happens in the future. we could start winning tomorrow and babcock would just become the forgotten piece. if anything, it'll be painted as success in spite of babcock's decisions, not because of them. there's virtually no way to redeem rob now. that's a shame. i was never his biggest fan but he certainly got a tough break here. the people (be it the fans, media, players, whoever) starved for patience just couldn't deal with their flaw- and in effect, they won out. he'll be forever remembered as the 'idiot' who: couldn't deal vince for anything ("we gave him away! we gave him away!" cries from the fans who have short memories and presumably huge accounts with the national tabloids); bought out alonzo at a ridiculous price (i could never really support this one myself- but i think it was more of a crime on the part of mourning than babcock); drafted araujo ahead of iguodala (this draft night hindsight garbage is so unfortunate. i just wish people would finally concede that humans can't tell the future, but what can you do); wouldn't deal jalen rose for antonio davis (just pretending that the first-round draft pick wasn't included in the deal... the "worthless" first round pick... just like the two firsts acquired for vince... they don't really exist because they don't have names on them... but wasn't iguodala a first rounder? oh, i see, that pick mattered...).

i mean, the moves after it became apparent that the raps would no longer click with vince carter were consistent (imo). it became a chris bosh universe to rob. i think the "mistakes" made while vince was here were made because of vince- you could almost blame him for their failure (like hoffa, like rafer). once he was out of the picture, though, we understandably began dealing now for later- not now for now- but a lot of us didn't pick up on that: "what the hell you doing! you're crazy! letting donyell walk for nothing!", "picking guys and keeping them in europe! fire babcock!", "1-15! fire babcock!", "you think we're going to be worse this year than last year!"

like we were planning to make a run for the title this season.

the latest trade with new york has caused particular pain for me. wayne embry is actually getting credit for making it. yeah, let's see how that pans out when the raptors find the free agent market relatively barren this summer, or when the denver first rounder results in a quality pro for the knicks. i obviously don't know whether it'll happen like that, but let's just see what people say if it does. contradiction in a bottle. embry'll become the foe: "you couldn't tell the future! moron!"

and what's more, some of us are acting like embry orchestrated the trade itself. man, like babcock didn't have that offer sitting on his desk for months. like, why is wayne getting the credit? because he pulled the trigger? who's to say rob wouldn't have done the same thing once the deadline neared? and i mean, it becomes especially absurd when you consider what we're complaining about: just pulling the trigger. like we're more qualified than rob babcock to assess the trade's value. we "knew" that it was a great deal for the team- and rob didn't. it's 'obviously a great trade'. yeah, if only it were that simple.

if i had to put an honest spin on it, i'd say we're giving embry credit solely for not being babcock. in other words, we criticized rob so mercifully while he was here that, now that we're finally seeing some fruits, we can't swallow our pride and admit that the man led a strong rebuilding plan. instead, we have to offer the credit to someone else because we can't handle the fact that we've been proven impatient, unfair, and wrong. we're almost pretending. we are pretending.

put differently, it's become denial. and that denial will probably allow us to do it yet again in the future. we just can't handle having been wrong. we want to be 'successful critics'. we need to justify our criticism- for now and the future. babcock's clearly been hung out to dry- and that story hasn't been printed. hasn't even been hinted.

it's really kind of alarming when you think about it.

peace
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Old 03-08-2006, 02:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorNoboa
There are only one of two possible reasons that Babcock got fired:

1. The Raps knew that Colangelo might be interested in a new job, but Colangelo being a man of honour, would not negotiate while another man was employed.

2. He would not pull off the Rose trade.. instead wanted to keep the draft pick.
I think there is a combo of both. Bobcat knew something as going on well before the firing happened. Dinners and phone calls were happening. The axe almost fell, bbut then the raps went on a streak. They waited for another bad stretch, then whack. Considering the previous MLSE stance of not firing anyone in season, they did this because they knew they had to act fast to get BC done.
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Old 03-08-2006, 02:55 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

Quote:
Originally Posted by narrator
Babcock was not a genius at any time. Ever. He never will be. He has no cojones
Charlie picked at 7. I call that cojones. I stopped reading after the above.
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Old 03-08-2006, 03:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Babcock was Genius (after Drafting Hoffa)

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlz
To all you whiners who wanted to see <b>D. Marshall</b> Stay look at his numbers this year on a decent team.
(1-9) last night vs. Raps and shooting < 38% from 3.
I didn't want Marshall to stay, I wanted him traded for some sort of asset, even a late 1st or 2nd rounder.

Quote:
- He drafted <b>Carlie V</b> who is widely regarded as a top 3 rookie
Not a bad move, but remember the Raps had a chance to trade 7+16 for 3, which would have gotten Chris Paul. Paul has turned a terrible team into a playoff team as a rookie. I really believe we'd be in the playoff hunt if we had Paul. Not making that trade was a huge, huge mistake.

Sam was just voted worst coach in the NBA by the players.

Quote:
- NO PG -> <b>Rafer via FA</b> -> James out of thin air.
The Rafer signing was a mistake. He rectified it by trading Rafer for James, so I give him props for that.

Quote:
- No cap space but still got <b>Bonner and Calderone</b> under contract with MLE.
Calderon is a nice pickup. Bonner is a non-factor really. Pretty much every GM signs bench players like Bonner every year.

Quote:
- Hired <b>Wayne Embry</b> (who Colangelo said was the only reason he even considered the job)
- Roko with a 2nd round DP.
Roko hasn't played a game in the NBA, so you can't credit him with a good pick. He could be a total bust.

Babcock had a better year this year, but then again almost anything would be better than his 1st year. He was by no means a genius. Pretty sad that expectations have been lowered so much than Raptor fans praise things like signing Bonner and trading for a guy who might leave as a FA after one year.

I'm *very* glad he's gone and Colangelo is in his place.
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