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trick · 05-22-2006, 03:33 PM

Perhaps I'm alone here, but doesn't that comment disturb anyone else about Bargnani as a person? The "It's my way or the highway" attitude never sits well with me, especially coming from someone who hasn't even entered the draft yet (Steve Francis).

I don't even care that this does put the raps in a good position. The league and its fans shouldn't have to tolerate those who think the (nba) world owes them something before even stepping foot into an NBA arena.

Of course the words above are moot if such a thing is just misguided gossip.

VTRapsfan · 05-22-2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedythief

Colangelo doesn't believe in plugging holes with the draft, though. He thinks you fill needs through trades and free agency. So we'll see how well he can do that and get us the best prospect he can at the same time.

True, but we need a young, talented scorer/defender at SG/SF who can handle being a 2nd or 3rd option, and a defense-oriented center. I don't think we can address both in free agency, and we don't have a whole lot of trade bait unless we plan on trading the pick. Which leads to the conclusion: We should address one of these needs in the draft. Bargnani is neither.

mo76 · 05-22-2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaptorsCB4

True, but we need a young, talented scorer/defender at SG/SF who can handle being a 2nd or 3rd option, and a defense-oriented center. I don't think we can address both in free agency, and we don't have a whole lot of trade bait unless we plan on trading the pick. Which leads to the conclusion: We should address one of these needs in the draft. Bargnani is neither.

Best post ive seen in a long time. Repped.

clutchmoney · 05-22-2006, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo76

I think its kind of a wastfull pick imo, like the hawks taking marvin williams. We should draft a starter that fills a need with a top 5 pick. Im all for taking him in the mid to late first round or the second round though. Maybe he will fall like Lampe did a couple years ago. (i hope he isnt another lampe though)

He's not a Lampe...this guy is a proven scorer in the top euro league...he's played for something like 4-5 years already! Mid-to-late first round?? the guy is going to be a top 3 pick in my opinion...he's not even going to be around at the #5 spot.

RaptorsCB4...you never really get defense from a young rookie, that's something they learn to play...

**speedythief** · 05-22-2006, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaptorsCB4

True, but we need a young, talented scorer/defender at SG/SF who can handle being a 2nd or 3rd option, and a defense-oriented center. I don't think we can address both in free agency, and we don't have a whole lot of trade bait unless we plan on trading the pick. Which leads to the conclusion: We should address one of these needs in the draft. Bargnani is neither.

So we take Rafael Araujo, because we already have Vince Carter (so we don't need Andre Iguodala)?

Anyways, I disagree that our biggest need is a wing player. I think we can make due with what we have for now, especially if Graham can be as good as Colangelo seems to expect, and we can bring Ukic to Toronto for the upcoming season.

Our biggest need right now, IMO, is to get better players and improve as a team. There isn't a point guard or a centre out there that will reinvent our team overnight, at least not one that is attainable.

I think it's fine to draft for need if the prospect quality is a wash. I don't think it is in this draft. Bargnani is being talked about as a potential first overall pick (re: Chicago and Portland boards) and it would be a much bigger mistake to pass on him because he doesn't address an immediate need. Not if we see so much potential in him/so much less in other (more plug-and-play) prospects.

Teams that are already very close to great success focus on needs. Teams like ours need to be more forward thinking.

**ballocks** · 05-22-2006, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trick

Perhaps I'm alone here, but doesn't that comment disturb anyone else about Bargnani as a person? The "It's my way or the highway" attitude never sits well with me, especially coming from someone who hasn't even entered the draft yet (Steve Francis).

that's an excellent point and i personally don't want it to be overlooked. of course, like you said, if this is more media-driven than bargnani-driven, i don't think we should be as concerned.

but still, i think maintaining the human quality we have as a roster is paramount right now. i see it as being a valuable asset. you could never be too careful to prevent any player from disrupting such a healthy intangible.

still haven't seen bargnani on the floor. i'd love to hear any raptor fan's opinion of him and his game.

peace

**speedythief** · 05-22-2006, 05:07 PM

^ Well despite pretending like they haven't seen him play, Jack, Chuck and Leo, assuming they watch/attend Raptors pre-season games, got a look at Bargnani when the Raps played BT in preseason a while back ('04). Keep in mind he's since had two more years of experience with one of Europe's top teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Swirsky

October 20, 2004

(TORONTO) -- The Raptors may be in preseason mode, but they'll be playing a regular-season-like schedule this week, with three games in four nights starting tonight (Wednesday) at Air Canada Centre against Benetton Treviso of the Italian and Euro Leagues.

Bargnani finished with 13 points on 6/15 shooting, taking bigger players off the dribble and using his shooting range to create scoring chances.

Here is a poor translation of a game recap from benettonbasket.it:

Quote:

(20 Ott., h 23,00 Canadians) - Toronto Raptors - Benetton, than brividi, and not sure for the cold! Who in fact would have never thought to arrive to incredible - 2 (83-81) to the 48'? All the biancoverdi, of coUrse, drag from Massimo Bulleri absorbed to protagonist in the last hot period to you and that with a plushy suspension from the average it has carried nearest its miracle. To follow: ball lost from the Raptors and Siskauskas that are made to stoppare in penetration from Marshall for the possible balancing. Bosh of it is useful and from the other part it makes a game from 3 points on offensive bounce (86-81 less 1' 19”), Garnett mistakes a drainage in means to the area, on the other Palacio side it still imitates it and Bulleri company from lunetta the 2/2 of 86-83. Toronto fails the last offensive possession, Bullo has the sphere of balancing less 7” but, instead pulling from 3, inciampa and it commits one veniale excessive (and treasurer, for canoni European) the infraction of double ball tossing. It ends with a defeat of measure 86-83, but in reality it has been indeed happened a this transfer in Canadian earth for the Benetton Basket. The greatest emotion, for all, to beyond the mere result and of statistics. The Benetton Basket has put foot to the Air Canada Centre, the house of Toronto Raptors, one of the blasonate Nba exemptions more and of it is exited to the high, highest head, demonstrating that the values of a basket genuine, fact more with the sweat and the sacrifice of the square, can how much indeed, if not perhaps more, of the talent characterizes them. The wait lived between hotel, coach and the immense palace of the Raptors filled up from 10.668 spectators (the half of the capienza, many the trevigiani doc!), it loads that the players biancoverdi have given themselves inside of the dressing room or to the income in field, the psichedeliche lights and music rap to all volume for the presentation of the Raptors, the showy absence of Gains Carter, arranged in park bench for a physical problem (or of relationships - thesis - with the society). And still, the scent of hamburger and patatine that invades the field, coming from from the salottini vip and from the present restaurants along the corridors of the arena (while the game is watched can call the waiter and order the food here, always seated on just the seat…), the happiness to see many flags Italian to wave in platea, proudly brandite from Italians emigrated to Toronto, brividi in feeling just the hymn, that white man-red-green that all over the world is listened to and appreciated, the pazzeschi games even organizes you from the staff of the Raptors to the term of every fourth and during Time out, perhaps the attended moment more from the public… All this and a lot other anchor has been Toronto Raptors - Benetton Basket, one postcard to frame in a heart angle and to hold always illuminated, for one entire life. The game? They have gained the Raptors also not shining, sinning of presunzione in underrating sure players biancoverdi (“We are perhaps indeed curious to play against who was over of we on the podio of Atene”, had confessed us Donyell Marshall, perhaps the best one of its this evening, center from the great athletic and technical qualities). And the Benetton Basket has been always them, to fight on every football, to try and to find good solutions in attack: like the numbers of Andrea Bargnani, author of some played mirabili (shooting from three, two penetrations that have left on the place a sure Chris Bosh, assist excellent) that they have lead the Benetton Basket to the two only advantages of encounter (23-21 and 25-23 to the 8'). Or like those of Marcus Goree and Ramunas Siskauskas, players all concretezza who have put to gogna quoted people like Matt Bonner and Lamond Murray having found also good solutions in means and to outside of the area. For the rest, Benetton Basket always attacked the adversaries, although was very soon penalized from makes them of Marconato and Beard, 3 to head in less than two periods, first. Less 2 to the end of the first quarter, less 8 to the longer interval with Marshall in chair for Toronto and, after to have touched - 14 to I re-enter enduring the fast game of the Raptors, the Benetton Basket has had the grinta in order to bite the opposing exteriors in defense and the patience to weave one ragnatela in attack without to force the times, waiting for the just moment in order to hit to the flanks the adversary and to go back until moving, intense, moving end all biancoverde. Italy of the basket, stanotte, has of that to be fair.

I love it when people rip on Gains Carter, especially when they question his relationship with the fans.

butr · 05-23-2006, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trick

Perhaps I'm alone here, but doesn't that comment disturb anyone else about Bargnani as a person? The "It's my way or the highway" attitude never sits well with me, especially coming from someone who hasn't even entered the draft yet (Steve Francis).

I don't even care that this does put the raps in a good position. The league and its fans shouldn't have to tolerate those who think the (nba) world owes them something before even stepping foot into an NBA arena.

Of course the words above are moot if such a thing is just misguided gossip.

Not in the least. This is all about BC and the Treviso GM being in cahoots, influencing his player so that he can get what he and the Raptors want, regardless of position.

And if you guys think someone won't take him and let him sit, you're wrong. The Raps have to take him with their 1st pick. He may want to come here but he's not coming for 22nd pick money.

Of course it could all be a giant smokescreen. But it makes too much sense not to be true.

VTRapsfan · 05-23-2006, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clutchmoney

RaptorsCB4...you never really get defense from a young rookie, that's something they learn to play...

I disagree with you there, I think that in the draft, if you pick correctly, you can get a good rookie defender. Obviously Graham's defense was a disappointment, but there have been many rookies over the past few years that came in and played good D - Prince, Paul, Granger, Bogut, Igoudala, Josh Smith. None of those guys were great defenders their rookie year, but they were acceptable and most have already showed they be great or have some potential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedythief

So we take Rafael Araujo, because we already have Vince Carter (so we don't need Andre Iguodala)?

Anyways, I disagree that our biggest need is a wing player. I think we can make due with what we have for now, especially if Graham can be as good as Colangelo seems to expect, and we can bring Ukic to Toronto for the upcoming season.

Our biggest need right now, IMO, is to get better players and improve as a team. There isn't a point guard or a centre out there that will reinvent our team overnight, at least not one that is attainable.

I think it's fine to draft for need if the prospect quality is a wash. I don't think it is in this draft. Bargnani is being talked about as a potential first overall pick (re: Chicago and Portland boards) and it would be a much bigger mistake to pass on him because he doesn't address an immediate need. Not if we see so much potential in him/so much less in other (more plug-and-play) prospects.

Teams that are already very close to great success focus on needs. Teams like ours need to be more forward thinking.

The prospect quality isn't a wash, but I don't believe there's a very big gap between Bargnani and, say, Rudy Gay. If he truly is the best player in the draft by a large margin, I wouldn't be against taking him. But I don't think he's head-and-shoulders above the rest of the top prospects.

Also, you compared this situation to what happened in '04 with Hoffa. It's the same idea, but this is a completely different situation. Yes, I would have rather had Igoudala, but Babcock's error in judgment was passing on Iggy because we had 1 superstar at his position. He could've come off the bench to back up Carter, or even started alongside him. We weren't stacked at SF when we could have had Iggy, we just had a star already. With Bargnani, we have a complete logjam at the position that he plays (PF/SF). It was one thing when we drafted Charlie - he was versatile and proved he could play the 3, so it turned out that he didn't interfere with Bosh's development at all. If we draft Bargnani, we'll have Bosh, Villanueva, Bargnani, Bonner, Williams, and Sow all competing for 2, maybe 3 spots of major playing time while the others rot on the bench. Also, how many of those guys play D? Bosh is mediocre, Villanueva and Bargnani are worse, Bonner hustles but isn't quick or strong enough, and the best defender out of this group (EWill and Sow) are the most likely to be benchwarmers. And even if we sign a free agent center, that makes the logjam even worse because Bosh won't be sliding over to C sometimes. Bottome line is: If we draft him, we either run with the worst defensive team in the league, or have half the big men on the roster rot on the bench.

l2owen · 05-23-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaptorsCB4

I disagree with you there, I think that in the draft, if you pick correctly, you can get a good rookie defender. Obviously Graham's defense was a disappointment, but there have been many rookies over the past few years that came in and played good D - Prince, Paul, Granger, Bogut, Igoudala, Josh Smith. None of those guys were great defenders their rookie year, but they were acceptable and most have already showed they be great or have some potential.

The prospect quality isn't a wash, but I don't believe there's a very big gap between Bargnani and, say, Rudy Gay. If he truly is the best player in the draft by a large margin, I wouldn't be against taking him. But I don't think he's head-and-shoulders above the rest of the top prospects.

Also, you compared this situation to what happened in '04 with Hoffa. It's the same idea, but this is a completely different situation. Yes, I would have rather had Igoudala, but Babcock's error in judgment was passing on Iggy because we had 1 superstar at his position. He could've come off the bench to back up Carter, or even started alongside him. We weren't stacked at SF when we could have had Iggy, we just had a star already. With Bargnani, we have a complete logjam at the position that he plays (PF/SF). It was one thing when we drafted Charlie - he was versatile and proved he could play the 3, so it turned out that he didn't interfere with Bosh's development at all. If we draft Bargnani, we'll have Bosh, Villanueva, Bargnani, Bonner, Williams, and Sow all competing for 2, maybe 3 spots of major playing time while the others rot on the bench. Also, how many of those guys play D? Bosh is mediocre, Villanueva and Bargnani are worse, Bonner hustles but isn't quick or strong enough, and the best defender out of this group (EWill and Sow) are the most likely to be benchwarmers. And even if we sign a free agent center, that makes the logjam even worse because Bosh won't be sliding over to C sometimes. Bottome line is: If we draft him, we either run with the worst defensive team in the league, or have half the big men on the roster rot on the bench.

huh how can we have a logjam at pf/sf position ? are you really more worried about getting bonner and eric williams playing time than getting dirk nowitzki out on the floor? competition for time is a good thing, it makes the players work harder. sam mitchell talked about it himself in an interview. players shouldnt come in expecting minutes, they should have competition and fight hard for what they get. not to mention passing up on a supertalent because youre afraid not enough minutes will go to the scrubs... is equally obscene as drafting hoffa over iggy . we do not have the luxery to be picky about the talent we get, we need to get the best most talented players period. you take the best talent available.

Team Mao · 05-23-2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaptorsCB4

stuff.....
With Bargnani, we have a complete logjam at the position that he plays (PF/SF). It was one thing when we drafted Charlie - he was versatile and proved he could play the 3, so it turned out that he didn't interfere with Bosh's development at all. If we draft Bargnani, we'll have Bosh, Villanueva, Bargnani, Bonner, Williams, and Sow all competing for 2, maybe 3 spots of major playing time while the others rot on the bench. Also, how many of those guys play D? Bosh is mediocre, Villanueva and Bargnani are worse, Bonner hustles but isn't quick or strong enough, and the best defender out of this group (EWill and Sow) are the most likely to be benchwarmers. And even if we sign a free agent center, that makes the logjam even worse because Bosh won't be sliding over to C sometimes. Bottome line is: If we draft him, we either run with the worst defensive team in the league, or have half the big men on the roster rot on the bench.

If Bonner, Williams and Sow rot on the bench, so be it (especially for Williams), Sow and Bonner really should only be playing 10mpg max anyway and only played so much on our team this season because we were so short on talent.

If we sign a FA centre, there are still lots of minutes to go around and Bosh would only need to play centre for maybe 15-20mpg. If you look at the minutes in the frontcourt, there are 144 mpg between the 3 positions. Let's say Bosh, Bargs, Villy and FA centre are playing the bulk of those minutes. Bosh plays 35 (20 at the 4 and 15 at the 5), Bargs plays 30 (20 at the 4, 10 at the 3), Charlie plays 30 (25 at the 3, 5 at the 4), and the FA centre takes up 25-30 at the 5. This leaves a few minutes for Bonner and Sow and leaves minutes at the 3 for Graham who will likely be playing the 2/3 positions this upcoming season.

I'm not too concerned about logjams when the players who are being pushed to the bench are hardly deserving of the minutes they received this past season.

l2owen · 05-23-2006, 08:01 AM

^^ agreed with mao.

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