butr

No. It is a very good indication of strength, as it is a STRENGTH test. Why do all NFL prospects get similar tests. My Eagles drafted a DT that benched 225 40+ times.

Think that had no impact on their decision? Who's going to win a rebound battle LA v. SW. I'll put my cash on SW EVERY last time.

And Hoffa is a T-Rex, short-*** arms, small hands. Big diff.

And I haven't seen too many blocks in any league from standing reach.

butr

Very plausible explanation. Very well could be.

ballocks

imo, the arguments against shelden williams remain generally unfair. in the same way, i think presenting evidence like the man's superior results on the bench press is irrelevant. "short/long arms", "short/long wingspan", "short body", "muscular frame", "gym trainer", "smelly feet", etc. are all nice offseason subjects, but they don't make him any better or worse of a basketball player. i think we all know this, it's just not as interesting. i guess we need to something to talk about; and i guess that's fine.

but to suggest that shelden williams will have an especially tough time defending nba players because he's 6'7.75'' barefoot is weak. the man can play defense with whatever frame he's been given- can anyone name a single major college player (regardless of era) who was a definitive fly swatter in the ncaa and went on to a mediocre defensive career in the pros? it just doesn't happen all that often- if ever. you play the way you are. yeah, we can talk about "size" and "reps" and all that other stuff if we're looking for an opinion in june, but players like shelden have already played enough winter basketball to render those thoughts irrelevant. we've seen him, we know what he can and can't do. the fact that he's just under 6'8" coming out of the shower doesn't really matter unless you want it to matter (i.e. don't want to pick him).

likewise, the fact that he can triple lamarcus' numbers in the gym doesn't matter either. we know he's stronger- i mean, have we not seen lamarcus aldridge already? the guy's a toothpick at this stage, but you still don't see him being bullied regularly by anyone of any size from any school. that would not be my critique of his game. if anyone's been bullied by an opponent with a bigger frame, i'd suggest it was probably shelden by sean may on a couple of occasions- although they happened a long time ago, and "bullied" might be the wrong description anyway.

to me, unless you're a diminutive point guard (and exceptions exist even there), body type doesn't make a significant difference in the transition between college and the pros. you find a way to cope, just like you have to date. i hope we don't make our decision on the basis of only that criteria- there are more important factors, imo. just like with rudy gay: people seem to adore him again, "the offseason wonder". yeah, he's gravity-defying and has been known to tango on top of the backboard from time to time, but basketball is the paramount issue here. a player like him, imo, took virtually zero steps this season towards making additional use of that great skill- watch a huskies game from last year, then this year. has he changed... at all? things like that would raise a red flag in my world, not whether he's 6'9" and can leg press a mountain.

in terms of the conspiracy, it's interesting but i don't think i buy it. one of the main reasons i'm enjoying our draft position this year is for stories like this, but i'm not one to be swayed. i don't think bryan colangelo has made up his mind at all, on anyone, i think there are too many decision makers to hear from (and decisions to be made) and i sincerely doubt that he's heard from enough of them to guarantee shelden or anybody his selection in the top 5. i just don't think shelden has a guarantee at all (that's my theory!). we've seen these games many times before, especially in the nba, and players/agents have been known to use 'guarantees' to market themselves better. i think it does work but... i think it's also too early to be real in this case.

but on the point of guarantees in general, i think we should probably acknowledge that they don't happen as often as we'd like to think. i mean, i don't blame anyone for talking about them- after all, we can't stop hearing about players "looking for guarantees in the first!"- but they are risky propositions to which no team is bound. if anything, i think players are told by suitors that they're certainly in demand, but to go to the full length of offering a guarantee is not customary. for 29 teams in the draft, there are just far too many factors to hold constant. that said, the exception would most likely be the team holding the first pick, so in terms of shelden williams and toronto it would probably make more sense than normal (imo) but still... time will tell.

t minus 16 days... nice.

peace

l2owen

NO. what does the NFL have to do with the NBA? those sports require COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PHYSICAL STANDARDS. nfl players carry excess weight to hold the front lines, and their offensive lines are made for speed / short/ quick players. what the hell does football have to do with the nba??? obviously in football youre going to have stronger and shorter players. you cant measure nba players by what football players do LOL . they dont have 7 footers running around playing positions.

and as for blocks ---> basketball people will tell you standing reach is more important than a wingspan.

here is even an article talking about standing reach and how more important it is than wingspan.

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1004

and no i wouldnt put my money on shelden to outrebound LA every single time. i bet you anything ANYTHING that when the rookies meet during their games LA will outrebound SW in at least one of those games. and on the NBA season i bet LA will average more rebounds than SW.


and obviously you wont see blocks from standing reach . standing reach plays an important role in all areas of the game, and its also most important when you have your feet planted and are playing defense without leaving the ground. you ever watch interior post defense players with their arms straight up guarding shots? thats standing reach for you right there. when you shoot the ball. you arent using your wingspan, youre not shooting the ball from your side. you raise your arms to shoot the ball, standing reach again . standing reach is VERY important.

Flush

Are you saying that the Bench press is not a good test for strength as it applies to basketball?

IMO the bench press translates better to basketball than football. Especially post players. Football players usually only use their upperbody strength to finish moves. Sometimes they use it to straight arm etc but how rare is that.

Basketball players use their upperbody strength in the post almost exclusively. In the post players use their arms by pushing a player away from their torso, much the same say you would say...bench press. If a player cannot bench very much weight it becomes much easier to back them down in the post. Not something you want out of a centre prospect. Leg strength factors in here somewhat, but if you are forced to use your legs you must bend your knees....lowering your height. If you are able to use more upper body strength you can stay tall.

l2owen

whoa whoa . only upper body strength in the post?? lower body strength IS VERY important for retaining your position. whats the point of having upper body strength if your feet , your foundation, can easily be displaced? and post defense required "digging in" and holding your position , thats not only upper body strength , thats very heavy legwork.

and you were saying something about pushing of the torso. well the physics is this. for every action there is a reaction . when you are pushing someone out of the block, that same force is pushing back at you. if you do not have the leg strength to retain your position youre basically pushing yourself. its not just upper body strength, if you want to push someone out of the post you have to have the ability to retain your position and not displace yourself while pushing on the other guy . or when he pushes on you. being able to retain your position and holding off that upper body force is all in the leverage /grip/strength/ of your lower body and its ability to hold off that push .

example ====> stand totally straight next to a wall and push it with an arm , extended fully. you'll just flop down because you have nothing to support yourself, you arent using your lower body whatsoever .

now put one of your feet back and then push the wall . notice the tension in your lower body muscles that are working to maintain that position and displace the force that is pushing you back ( which is you pushing against the wall , which is pushing you back )


thats just a very dumbbed down example of how lower body strength is important in holding position. legs are VERY VERY important for post players.

Team Mao

Interesting arguments from everyone but hasn't it been obvious for a long time that Shelden Williams is much stronger than LaMarcus Aldridge? Aldridge fans can come up with all the excuses they want, but the simple fact is that they guy is going to get abused by stronger post players in the league.

His comments in a recent DX interview about it not being important to bulk up make it seem like he either seems himself as a PF or that he's just dumb. I'm hoping it's the first of the two.

Is bench press the best test for NBA players? Probably not. I'd like to see them do a squat test as well to test lower body core strength. My guess would be that guys who do well on the bench would also do well on the squat because most strong players are strong all around. You don't see a lot of guys in the league with big upperbodies on stick legs or vice-versa.

In terms of upper body strength helping, I think it's helpful in finishing down low, fighting for boards and durability in the post- when a big guy is backing you down, you need a strong upperbody core to keep from getting beat up.

billfindlay10

I think that the upper body strength comes into play when you have a 50/50 rebound. Two guys are going to battle with neither player having the "box out" advantage, the player who has the ability to hold off the other by use of a forearm and then come down with the board with a free hand is at an advantage...this takes very good upper body strength and can result in one or two more rebounds per game.

That being said, core strength is the overall most important factor in my book....but a well
conditioned player (physical) will have a solid core as well as upper and lower body strength

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l2owen

^^ agreed. my point is that you cant overlook lower body strength and say its not important in the post like flush was saying . it is very important to have a strong foundation, but like you guys said usually if hes strong up there he will be strong in the legs too . core strength is important..but to say the most important thing for post players is upper body ... its not true at all . and yeah when holding off /pushing other players again , your foundation , your feet/legs, play a very important role in letting you maintain your position and pushing someone else off of theirs. also the speed at which you are able to reach the ball , if you can elevate faster and quicker than the other guy , if your reach is longer.. all these things play an important role in a post players ability to rebound .

point is that bench press are not a good way to measure how good a player will be in the post, there are a lot of different factors that come into play. you dont have to bench a crapload to be an athletic beast. benching is not a good way to measure post potential . for example one of shawn marions strengths as a rebounder is how insanely fast he gets off the ground . hes just amazing. combine that with his amazing vertical and the guy is up and above his competition before they can react. his refelxes are fantastic. this is just another example of how you dont need to be an uber buffed up power body to get rebounds. even though marion is no slouch himself, hes built like a rock .

Flush

You are only re-enforcing my point. The more leg strength required you must BEND your legs...thus lowering your overall height.

Someone who has a strong upper body does not need to bend their legs as much inorder to create outward force. Thus they stand much taller.

Watch people gaurding shaq 1on1 in the post they are often leaning and bending to the point that they loose 8-12 inches just to create enough force to prevent being backed down. Shaq will often tower over 7 footers in this instance, and get off easy hooks or power over them for dunks.

Aldridge is much taller than williams. but in 1 to 1 post defense LA will need to compensate for a lack of upper body strength by bending and leaning. SW will retain more of his natural height by standing taller and using his strength.

Flush

Where did I say it wasn't important? I didn't say that at all.

The more you rely on lower body the shorter you become, thus negating length.

l2owen

you said leg factors in "somewhat".. its a lot more than somewhat.. thats downplaying a very vital aspect of post play . good footwork and strong legs are very very important for post players. not "somewhat" it just seemed like you were downplaying leg strength in favor of bench presses.....sorry if i misunderstood.

Flush