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**Crossword** · 04-10-2007, 09:40 PM

Holy ****, this is getting retarded guys. First of all I'm tired and sick and cranky, and I should be asleep, but I'll go after this post.

But for real... it's like nothing in the world can possibly make us happy as Raptors fans! Remember back when we couldn't win the 2nd game of a back-to-back to save our lives under Kevin O'Neill? Or when we were forced into playing Bosh at centre vs. much bigger men when he was 19 and 20 years old? Or when Vince Carter decided it'd be fun to not show up for us and play (oddly enough, we're more than willing to remember that one)? Or when Mike James was our most reliable offensive threat, or so he thought? Or when we used to cheer for other non-playoff teams to win so we'd get better draft positioning? Or when the NCAA tournament actually meant anything to us for that matter? Or when we didn't know who our starting point guard would be, let alone our backup point guard? Or when Lamond Murray was the first player off our bench? Or when we would play like a playoff team for stretches of 5, 10 games, and then promptly return back into our little hole in the land of mediocrity? Or when Bosh wasn't clutch? Or when Mitchell was a bad coach? Or when MoPete was inconsistent? Or when Alvin Williams was regarded as a future HOFer?

Yet, the amazing thing is, by the reaction by some on this board to our WINNING SEASON, it's as if we WANT those ghosts of seasons past to come back and haunt us... or probably more realistically, that's the only way some people would have anything to talk about.

This **** is like slavery. Losing is so damn deeply ingrained in our heads that we've come to accept it as reality. The Raptors, matter-of-factly, just HAVE to get the short end of the stick somehow. We HAVE to crawl back into our burrow of mediocrity and sulk in our own misery while the rest of Canada is too busy watching hockey and curling - and to top it all off, we HAVE to complain about that, too!

So what happens when something out of the norm occurs?
Suddenly, we not only know who our starting point guard is, but our backup as well! Every night, we know what kind of performance to expect from them, and anything lesser than the benchmark they've established is seen as a failure.
What's our reaction? Oh, Ford's not that good, he can't be! His backup is almost as good as him! And he shoots the ball, point guards don't shoot the ball! What on earth is he thinking? Start the backup, bench this bum!
Guys, this is not Milt Palacio we're talking about here, this is not Alvin Williams, this isn't even Mike James... we're talking about a bonafide team leader at the point and we want him lynched because he has a solid backup? Come on guys, we're better than that.

Or... suddenly, our bench is so deep Lamond Murray wouldn't even make the team! Even when we sustain injuries to supposed essential players, other guys step up and soften the blow, even neutralize it. We finally have a TEAM in more senses of the word than our minds can even register at this point.
And what's our reaction? Well, we're not THAT good, I mean, there ARE other teams in the league, you know! Don't pay attention to us, pay attention to them! We really don't deserve all of this positive attention, I mean, it's not like we're the '96 Bulls or anything! And it's not like we have a player who can stick his whole arm in the rim and make everyone like us superficially!
Again, what's so bad about having positive attention? If we keep acting like we don't deserve this, then as soon as it giveth, it taketh away. There's a reason the Clippers always suck, it's because they have this negative aura around them. Even when they're supposed to be good, they suck. Remind you of a (few) Raptors team(s) from a couple years back? Sure rings a bell to me.

Point is, we're a good team now. We're getting plenty of attention from sources that we would have CRAVED to see write for us in previous years. Yet it seems like almost everything positive we have going for us we shun, because we're just not used to having it - winning is an oddity, and maybe that's just too much to handle for us!

Of course it isn't. So enjoy it, and furthermore enjoy years to come of the Raptors having so-called problems such as too much positive publicity, too many good players at each position, and most delicious of them all, too many bandwagoners! Stop complaining, try it out, you just might like it!

jibe · 04-10-2007, 09:58 PM

raptor fans can not be pleased with the play of tjford at pg an thats a fact. he doesnt run the plays well an he dribbles too much which ruins the offense. something has changed on the raps from the start of the season an now tj doesnt fit in well with the euroball style of play.

remember when the raps were supposed to take a 100 shots a game a play phx bball .. then tj was injured an when he came back things changed. the raps were no longer the run an gun team that fit so well with tj an they became a solid halfcourt team taking fewer shots. i think the raps changed an tj didnt or couldnt an thats why tj looks weak at pg now.

i hope he can hold up in the playoffs against stiff defences cause his mistakes can lose it for us.

**shookem** · 04-10-2007, 10:03 PM

What are you talking about? Who's complaining? They guy above me just dislikes TJ, I'm sure he's happy with the season the team has had.

I haven't stopped smiling since the team went one game over .500.

crimedog · 04-10-2007, 10:05 PM

seifer0406 · 04-10-2007, 10:42 PM

Like I said, there are people on this board that have been Ford haters since the trade. These people disappear when TJ plays well and comes out blasting when he has a bad game. Earlier on in the season I had more of a motive defending TJ since there are no results to prove that he is a solid PG and perhaps the best PG the Raps have had in their franchise history. 45 wins later, I don't feel the need to defend him any longer. TJ has already proven to me and many Raps fans that the team is heading towards the right direction with him as the starting PG.

All that talk with "They are starting Ford because they gave up CV for him and are giving him big money" doesn't quite make sense to me. If the raps would win more with Jose as starting PG than TJ, it is in Sam Mitchell's best interest to go with the guy that would give him the most wins as his coaching job is on the line. Had Mitchell been starting Ford just to make Colangelo look good, Mitchell would lose his coaching job if the Raptors ended up losing. It's just a conflict of interests.

**Yao Mania** · 04-11-2007, 01:31 AM

My best argument for the TJ haters: Would you rather have Rafer Alston running your team right now???

Mr_B · 04-11-2007, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibe

raptor fans can not be pleased with the play of tjford at pg an thats a fact. he doesnt run the plays well an he dribbles too much which ruins the offense. something has changed on the raps from the start of the season an now tj doesnt fit in well with the euroball style of play.

remember when the raps were supposed to take a 100 shots a game a play phx bball .. then tj was injured an when he came back things changed. the raps were no longer the run an gun team that fit so well with tj an they became a solid halfcourt team taking fewer shots. i think the raps changed an tj didnt or couldnt an thats why tj looks weak at pg now.

i hope he can hold up in the playoffs against stiff defences cause his mistakes can lose it for us.

you can't be serious

is this a gimmick?

AllEyezonTX · 04-11-2007, 06:57 AM

you can say what you want about TJ, but it's a different Raptor team. It's a Team 1st, not a One-Man show they use too. You had ppl tuning in to see if Vince Carter would dunk on somone & now you have ppl tuning in to see some great team ball.

lucky777s · 04-11-2007, 07:28 AM

I have no idea what the first post of this thread was going on about. Everyone here is thrilled with the success of the team this year. Other than MoP every player has taken a big step forward- Bosh, Calderon, Graham, Nesterovic, Hump. Bargs has been as good as anyone could expect. Parker has vastly exceeded expectations. Garbo was a great addition, and Dixon has fit in pretty well.

TJ has been a good starting PG for us. I don't know that you could call him great, but he is certainly not bad. Most people would agree that his management of the offense and decision making in particular need to improve. He DOES take too many shots, especially when they are early in the clock. He DOES seem to get blinders on him when we are in close games in the final minutes. He calls his own number way too much in those situations. His wild layup attempts and horrible turnovers are a problem at times. On the plus side he is a better shooter than advertised, maybe thanks to Dave Hopla, and when he concentrates on defense he can really bother guys on the perimeter. His speed can be a great weapon at times.

Calderon looks to be a better fit with our current roster. The ball moves better when he is on the floor. Players can actually catch Jose's passes because they are on target and the right speed for the distance. Jose finishes better at the rim and takes better quality shots overall. I like to see the PG minutes split pretty evenly and keep both guys fresh. Lets them both play hard on D.

TJ has had probably 4-5 times as many bad games as Calderon. Jose having around 6-8 bad games all year and TJ having well more than 20 where his bad shots and turnovers hurt the club more than he helped them. This is a very rough estimation based on my general observation and not meant to be stated as fact. That is how I feel watching every game this season.

Still, the combo of Jose and TJ is very effective for us. Many Raps fans would just like to see Sam go with the hot hand more often, and that is usually Jose. Over the last few games for example it was Jose that led the Raptor charge but TJ was usually given the late game minutes anyway. That irks many fans.

In some ways Jose would make the better starter, ensuring that all our players touch the ball early and we start the game with a good flow. Low turnovers and good ball movement are what make us successful, and that is Jose's strength. Then TJ could come in with the change of pace and do his thing with the second unit. Jose could end the game, maintaining control of the offense and keeping the ball movement going. Minutes would still be split pretty evenly as I don't think either guy should be playing 35+ for us. A 28/20 split would work well most nights with the hot guard getting the majority of minutes.

TJ is young and may improve the mental side of his game over the years but we can't just assume that will happen. He has not changed much this year at all and I see the same bad habits in game 77 as I saw in game 3. For us to be a title contender we need him to take that next step, or to let Jose run the show in late game crunch time.

SickGame · 04-11-2007, 08:31 AM

Do you realize how retarded some of you sound when talking about Ford and his shooting? Like really, do any of you check stats ever? Do you compare him with other point guards? Because it really appears that alot of you don't and just like to blindly criticize.

To be honest, I actually can't read threads anymore due to the continous criticism of a point guard whose 24, 2 years removed from a season long injury, who is averaging 14/8 (which is top 5 by the way). He has been an integral reason why this team is where it's at now, which is one of the biggest reversals I've seen in professional sports.

He's averagine 8 ASSISTS. That puts him at 6th in the league. He's 24, remember that. But no one fails to mention that EVERY SINGLE PLAYER ahead of him on that list except one (Jason Kidd) shoots more than T.J.

You say that he shoots 'too much'? Really? Because T.J. takes 12.2 shots a game. Do you know what that means?
Well let's see some facts...12.2...hmmm, where does that rank?
Well let me tell you. IT RANKS BEHIND:

Baron Davis, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Stephon Marbury, Jamal Tinsley, Mo Williams, Mike Bibby, Leandro Barbosa, Rafer Alston, Kirk Hinrich, Raymond Felton, Allen Iverson, Gilbert Arenas.

He only takes ONE (or less than one) shot more than:
Chauncey Billups (11.8)
Earl Boykins (11.8)
Jameer Nelson (11.5)
Jason Kidd (11.4)
Andre Miller (11.3)

So there are 19 point guards that shoot about the same or more than T.J. Out of those 19, only 5 have more assists than he does. I mean, the only starting point gaurd who gets significant minutes/isn't platooning that averages a significant amount of less shots than T.J. is Smush Parker and Jarret Jack at 9 attempts.

Let me make this visible:
19 STARTING POINT GUARDS SHOOT JUST AS MUCH AS HE DOES. At a few cases, significantly more.

You want to criticize his shooting percentage and selection? Well that's very debatable
You know what T.J.'s percentage is? 43.3%. You know how many point guards shoot 1% or more better than him? 11. But we all knew that T.J. isn't a great shooter and that is why doesn't rank even in the top 15 in FGA. Because he knows it too. He's not a chucker, he just has to get his, like all point guards try to do.

Do remember that a point guard has to take at least 10 shots a game. Keeps defences honest, makes them scramble on screen and rolls etc.. etc.. The point guard is the quarterback of the team and will naturally want to take a few shots. It's a natural part of the game.

Shot selection? The guy shoots only 30% from 3pt land. Do you know how many attempts a game he makes? 0.9.
But afterall, he is a chucker right?

Do you know who shoots worse that he does, % wise? Well the notable mentions would have to be:
Chauncey Billups.
Jameer Nelson.
Stephon Marbury.
Jason Kidd.
Mike Bibby.

So please please please do some research before you guys spill utter garbage into your posts. Compare and contrast with other point guards.
Remember that he is 24 years old.
In a completely new system with 8 new faces.
Remember he's only one season (now 2) removed from a serious injury that kept him out all year.

But nah, he's a chucker. It's ever so obvious that Calderon is the better point guard and with him starting, not only would we had won the Atlantic, we would be ranked 1st in our conference and not 3rd. Yeah you're right.
T.J. is a bad point guard.

No really, you guys got it all figured out. If we lose, we can just peg it on the him.

Don't get me wrong, he makes some wrong decisions and tries to be the hero too much at times. But you realize that he's actually considered clutch by the standards of the stats created to judge such a trait (I can't find the source right now but someone mentioned in a previous thread on the general board that T.J. was somewhere along the lines of 5-6th in clutch factor in the pg/sg category).

You want something to criticize? His turnovers are 2nd in the league behind Steve Nash.

But to continously blast the guy for things that are obviously not very true is aggravating. I'd take a 24 year old T.J. Ford over 80% of all point guards right now, and to think of how much potential the kid has before he hits his peak (27-28) is just frightening. Consider this team lucky to have him.

p.s.
In terms of Calderon, the guy's stats are inflated because for the most part, he comes into the game after the players have already warmed up and are in a game zone. Not to mention that he plays against a few backups who are either cold and when he plays starters, it takes the defender some time to get used to the huge change in style between him and Ford.
Ford sets up alot of Calderon success. He gets the players going in the first, these very players that are still considered cold.

So please, give me a break about T.J.

**ballocks** · 04-11-2007, 08:45 AM

good post, man.

speaking for just myself, i do fall in the category. i'm certainly not disappointed but i also want it all. making vast improvements over last year was never much of a goal for me; i want more. and when i think we can get it, i'm frustrated when we don't. it probably explains some of the "negative energy" that i outlay from time to time.

i guess it's a fine line between being complacent & satisfied and being appreciative but wanting of more. that's how i'd justify how i handle this team, anyway. more fun that way, too.

the point guard situation is simply an easy matter to argue, i think that's why it's so popular. i think it beacons the fantastic position in which we currently find ourselves at the point. if i had to come up with an opinion on my own, i'd say that neither tj nor jose has been primarily responsible for many of our losses (imo). we've found ourselves to be rather successful in close games, so that's good and important, but the games we've lost have often been blowouts. that's my chief concern (for now and the future) and i don't think you could leave it at the feet of either one of our point guards. i think it's a team-wide epidemic. this team has taken too many nights off this season, imo, and i'm not comfortable with that becoming a force of habit down the road (provided it hasn't already become one).

i don't think changing the starting point guard would solve anything on that issue, i think that might be oversimplifying a more complicated 'problem'. instead, i think it could be (to start) a matter of leadership. i enjoy chris' increasingly vocal contributions, he's becoming a passionate 'leader', but even he doesn't show up for work occasionally. put differently, i think his mind is always in the game but his body doesn't always follow. if we could somehow augment our team leadership to the point where his body no longer has a choice (and that might be as simple as retaining the coach- or it might not), we could possibly sidestep the frequent lapses in energy we suffer from one night to the next.

that said, i think we've been much improved in that regard over the past two weeks. i think most of march was dreadful, notwithstanding our record, and i'm left wondering whether that might have had anything to do with the injuries suffered by garbajosa and bargnani. i don't know yet.

i'm getting off-topic, though, and i think that signals how i feel about the team: there is still much room for improvement. i love the fact that we're going to the playoffs and can begin to establish ourselves as legit contenders in this league, but that's only interesting for a short period of time. i'm more attracted to the ultimate goal, which relies on continuous improvement in order to achieve, and i don't mind being frustrated by the travails we encounter on our road to its glory. i sort of enjoy being that kind of fan. and my ultimate goal is not just the nba title, either: it's going 82-0/16-0. true, i'm sure that primes me for inevitable disappointment but i'm guaranteed a wild ride regardless, and i'll enjoy every step of the journey (even if we never get there).

how else to explain watching kevin o'neill's version of the toronto raptors in 03-04? i loved every minute of it... even when i hated it with a passion.

that's my take, bud boy. good thread.

peace

jibe · 04-11-2007, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SickGame

Do you realize how retarded some of you sound when talking about Ford and his shooting? Like really, do any of you check stats ever? Do you compare him with other point guards? Because it really appears that alot of you don't and just like to blindly criticize.

To be honest, I actually can't read threads anymore due to the continous criticism of a point guard whose 24, 2 years removed from a season long injury, who is averaging 14/8 (which is top 5 by the way). He has been an integral reason why this team is where it's at now, which is one of the biggest reversals I've seen in professional sports.

................

So please, give me a break about T.J.

pls look at http://www.82games.com/0607/0607TOR.HTM

it looks like jose is a lot better than tj at pg position based on these stats

the raps play so much better when jose is at pg an it shows regardless of your stats

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