[SkywalkerAC]

Oden's not that unknown. The kid's going to be a beast. There's no doubt in my mind. Injuries are always a concern but I'm betting he comes in strong off his microfracture rehab.

[MB30]

Originally Posted by seifer0406

For the record, I don't think Portland should do this trade base on the fact that you just don't trade dominant, potentially dominant big man with the capabilities of playing both end of the court. I think there is a good chance that Oden will become the a top 3 center in the next few years right next to Dwight Howard and Yao Ming and you have to be insane to trade Oden for anyone other than a few players in this league, say Lebron.

However, that has nothing to do with the talent of Bosh and Calderon. For one you don't just trade your franchise player away especially when he's just getting started. Oden might be a better player, but it's just too much of a risk to give up someone who is already well established both in the league and in the city of Toronto.



He would actually move up several spots on that horrible list of yours if you want accuracy. As I said, if you don't count AI and Arenas as PGs, Calderon would slip in at 9-10 spot. Nobody said that he is a superstar, but as far as PGs go, it's not a stretch by any means to say that Calderon belongs near the end of that top 10 list, which is what most of the Raptor fans believe him to be. And people aren't judging him base on the first 20 games. If you saw what he did last season when given minutes, and his playoff performance, you would've known that he is a great point guard. Calderon was also a big part of Spain's national team being the starting PG of that team. Spain has possibly the best if not a top 3 team in World competition and Calderon is a big reason for their success. Again, if you followed Calderon you would know these things. If you don't know anything about Calderon, one has to ask what position are you in in putting him down in this thread.

And where have I 'put Calderon down' in this thread? Ive said hes got the potential to be a good point guard, but hes not top 10 yet in my mind. I put veteran guys who have been borderline all-stars in front of him. I said he had the potential to be near top 10 if he continues to improve. I also said id be open to reviewing the list once more time has passed through this season. I never said he wasnt a good point guard capable of leading a successful team, which he has done with Spain, but if he is as good as u all say then why isnt he starting for your team instead of Ford? His play last season didnt warrant him a mention in 'Top 10' category - and while some of his performances have been eye opening so far this year with Ford out, he needs to prove he can do it over the course of 82 games before im willing to put him near the top 10.

[andalusian]

Love JC and Love Bosh - but Portland would never do that. Oden could be a game changer. JC will be a very good PG and Bosh is an elite PF - but he is not and will never be the superstar that Oden has the potential for. If Oden could be 80% of what D-Howard is - Portland will be a title contender year in and year out...

Portland, FWIW is at .500 without Oden and with Aldridge out this week - so I doubt Portland will have another great lottery selection next year, but Rudy Fernandez will probably come - and that's the same as a top-10 pick...

[seifer0406]

Originally Posted by BG44

And where have I 'put Calderon down' in this thread? Ive said hes got the potential to be a good point guard, but hes not top 10 yet in my mind. I put veteran guys who have been borderline all-stars in front of him. I said he had the potential to be near top 10 if he continues to improve. I also said id be open to reviewing the list once more time has passed through this season. I never said he wasnt a good point guard capable of leading a successful team, which he has done with Spain, but if he is as good as u all say then why isnt he starting for your team instead of Ford? His play last season didnt warrant him a mention in 'Top 10' category - and while some of his performances have been eye opening so far this year with Ford out, he needs to prove he can do it over the course of 82 games before im willing to put him near the top 10.

By putting Calderon under guys like Mo WiLOLliams. If I put Wade underneath guys like Vince Carter and Ben Gordon, don't you think I am inaccurately judging talent or perhaps putting Wade down on purpose? As I said before, if you know nothing about Calderon, why are you judging him? And why are you arguing with fans that have followed him, especially ones who have followed him on a daily basis?

As for being the starter on the team. You could make a case that Calderon isn't as good as advertised if he is starting behind a guy like Mo WiLOLliams. But TJ Ford before he was injured was playing great basketball as well. You are talking about 2 guys who averages 14 and 8 and 10 and 8 while playing under 28 minutes a game. If given enough playing time, both are capable of being that 9th-10th PG on that list of yours, it's just that Calderon has been playing more these days since Ford is hurt. The myth before was that these guys can't keep up their play when given more time, but Calderon has already erased that myth in many people's minds with his consistency.

I am in no way saying that Calderon and Ford are superstars, it's just that good PGs that can pass are a rarity in this league. Calderon isn't close to being a Nash or Kidd or Paul or D Will, but as far as pass first PGs go, I would rank him just underneath those 4 and will ahead of guys like Tinsley, Nelson, Felton, and Mo WiLOLliams.

[MB30]

Originally Posted by seifer0406

By putting Calderon under guys like Mo WiLOLliams. If I put Wade underneath guys like Vince Carter and Ben Gordon, don't you think I am inaccurately judging talent or perhaps putting Wade down on purpose? As I said before, if you know nothing about Calderon, why are you judging him? And why are you arguing with fans that have followed him, especially ones who have followed him on a daily basis?

As for being the starter on the team. You could make a case that Calderon isn't as good as advertised if he is starting behind a guy like Mo WiLOLliams. But TJ Ford before he was injured was playing great basketball as well. You are talking about 2 guys who averages 14 and 8 and 10 and 8 while playing under 28 minutes a game. If given enough playing time, both are capable of being that 9th-10th PG on that list of yours, it's just that Calderon has been playing more these days since Ford is hurt. The myth before was that these guys can't keep up their play when given more time, but Calderon has already erased that myth in many people's minds with his consistency.

I am in no way saying that Calderon and Ford are superstars, it's just that good PGs that can pass are a rarity in this league. Calderon isn't close to being a Nash or Kidd or Paul or D Will, but as far as pass first PGs go, I would rank him just underneath those 4 and will ahead of guys like Tinsley, Nelson, Felton, and Mo WiLOLliams.

I can understand your reasonings, as far as pass-first point guards in this league go (and there arent many of them). Really it all depends on the situation. In a team like Miami - we need shot makers, so Mo Williams would fit nice here. Where as in Milwaukee, he doesnt fit because they already have Redd and need to feed it too Bogut more. It all depends on the need of the team and how well the players game meshes with that.

Andre Miller as actually quite a good pass-first point guard, as is Tinsley (having a career year after a few dud ones). Felton is young and I would (personally) take him over Calderon at this point in time, although both have a case to make as the season progresses.

Mo Williams actually has a lot of talent. Hes still young and learning the point guard game, he's not as bad as you make him out to be. He's badly overpaid however. If you said Vince Carter is better then Wade, thatd be your opinion and im sure some people do think that. Id disagree, obviously, but thats what fans do.

Ill endeavour to watch more Raptors games and see if my opinion changes.

[lucky777s]

Isn't Yao already 80% or more of Dwight Howard? And doesn't he have Tracy McGrady next to him? Don't see them contending year in and year out.

So let's not give POR any rings just yet.

[andalusian]

Originally Posted by lucky777s

Isn't Yao already 80% or more of Dwight Howard? And doesn't he have Tracy McGrady next to him? Don't see them contending year in and year out.

So let's not give POR any rings just yet.

T-Mac plays like, what, 70% of a season? And is somewhat soft when it comes to playing strong night in night out. Add the fact that after these 2 the Rockets still do not have another player that can be clearly in the "big 3" category - and it should be easy to understand why the Rocket's duo (lack of) success does not translate to a Blazers team that will have a big 3 of Oden/Aldridge/Roy with some pretty good supporting cast. Outlaw is finally figuring out how to use his freak athletic abilities to score at will, they have pretty good long-range shooting in Jones/Webster and they have Europe's best young player coming over in Rudy Fernandez.

If Scola ever figures out this entire NBA thing, the Rockets will be very potent. One wonders however if the people at the Spurs knew something when they let him go for cheap.

[seifer0406]

Originally Posted by andalusian

T-Mac plays like, what, 70% of a season? And is somewhat soft when it comes to playing strong night in night out. Add the fact that after these 2 the Rockets still do not have another player that can be clearly in the "big 3" category - and it should be easy to understand why the Rocket's duo (lack of) success does not translate to a Blazers team that will have a big 3 of Oden/Aldridge/Roy with some pretty good supporting cast. Outlaw is finally figuring out how to use his freak athletic abilities to score at will, they have pretty good long-range shooting in Jones/Webster and they have Europe's best young player coming over in Rudy Fernandez.

If Scola ever figures out this entire NBA thing, the Rockets will be very potent. One wonders however if the people at the Spurs knew something when they let him go for cheap.

I think all he was saying was that a lot could still go wrong even after you draft a dominant big man. Obviously the 2 situations are very different, but the fact remains that nothing is certain in this league and there is value in being proven rather than simply potential.

[andalusian]

I have no doubts that nothing is guaranteed - but the assumption I make is that Portland's streak of pretty bad luck (health wise) will end and that the talent mushroom farm that KP invested in will get Portland enough fire-power to be contenders.

If Oden can be at least 80% of Howard - I will be shocked if this team will not be a contender in 3 years or so.

[Onions, Baby]

Lmao @ the dude who put Raymond Felton and Jameer Nelson ahead of Jose Calderon!! Jose is averaging 13/10 as a starter with a ridiculous A/T ratio. Top-10 easily.

no order;

nash
kidd
gilbert
ai
deron
paul
baron
parker
billups
calderon

switch the order the way you want it, those are the top-10.

[bigbabyjesus]

I would trade Bosh for Oden in a second

If you wouldn't, your extremely bias, or you just dont realize how good Oden is..

But adding Calderon kills the deal. I'd do it if they added Roy and we added Parker or something.

[NJ+VC]

In no real order, the PG's id honestly take over Jose Calderon for this year..im not gonna get into an arguement over age or nothing barring injury....

Nash
Kidd
Paul
Williams
Parker
BDiddy
Billups
Iverson
Arenas

Then probably calderon...u could make a case for ford probably but yea i think Jose is #10 on the best pg's list...cmon guy is 7th amoung pg's in assists at 7.8..only downfalls against him are little things, doesn't hit enough threes which I can live with..doesn't score enough, also i can live with that, and doesn't get as many steals as some of the other pg's...which i consider petty things from my PG.

You want ur pg to distribute the ball, and not turn it over and shoot a decent % from the field to keep defences honest, and in those three things calderon excels, averaging 7.8apg, 1.4topg, and shooting 50% from the field...but then again TJ Ford is shooting 49%, dishing out 7apg, and only turns it over 2.4 times and scores more soo it can go either way. I like calderon more than TJ however..

Only downfall i see in calderon is how sometimes he over dribbles, just at the top of the key he'll dribble and wait for a high screen and roll which is the key to his game..i dont see him as a fast break PG, but more of a half court PG.

[It's_GO_Time]

Originally Posted by bigbabyjesus

I would trade Bosh for Oden in a second

If you wouldn't, your extremely bias, or you just dont realize how good Oden is..

But adding Calderon kills the deal. I'd do it if they added Roy and we added Parker or something.

I agree with this post. If Bosh for Oden was really on the table, I think Toronto, after researching Oden, would pull the trigger based on his potential> he has all the tool to be an allstar. Ptd, if they didn't have Aldridge, might do it because Oden is potential but Bosh is proven.

But to throw in Calderon with Bosh is giving away Toronto's future for a player that isn't proven . . . and you just can't take that chance. Even if Oden turns out to be what many predict, it is too risky.

On Ptd side, I can't imagine they are looking to trade Oden. They have their future PF in Aldridge, they have a star (contrary to the torono's writer who voted for Barg) in Roy. Their one missing piece is the force in the middle.