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Dee-Zy · 02-12-2008, 01:26 AM

I posted this in the general forum but I want you guys' opinion.

Forget records...

I was thinking about this...

on paper, these teams are quite similar, PG/PF tandem with a big shooting man. So why are the Jazz so much better?

Jose vs DWill
AP vs Brewer
Kiri vs Moon
Bosh vs Boozer
Gnani vs Okur

Ford vs Hart
Fino vs Harpring
Kapono vs Korver
Humphries vs Milsap
Rasho vs Collins

Is the bottom line:

Smitch vs Sloan?

I don't think Boozer is better than Bosh, if he is, it isn't by that much.
DWill is def better than Calderon, but how much better is he?
What about Okur vs Gnani?
Is Kirilenko been doing better? How much better is he than Moon?

Toronto is better at the 2 and their bench kills Utah though.

thoughts?

I think on paper Jazz are only slightly better than the Raps yet they are a much better team.

southeasy · 02-12-2008, 01:54 AM

i posted in the general forum, but i'll post my response in here too

"the difference between Utah & Toronto is only 4 wins.

Jazz have more experience as said, a much more decorated coach, Toronto is still finding an identity w/ the past two seasons bringing in multiple new players to assimilate into the system.

Toronto has arguably (outside of the last week) had the hardest & most demanding schedule in the entire nba & still managed to keep our heads above water with some key injuries to starters.

when these two teams play, it is always a close competitive game.

they have high level players in Deron Williams, Boozer, Okur & Kirilenko. Toronto has Bosh, an emerging Jose Calderon & an injured TJ Ford just coming off missing over 20 games as our best players.

anybody who reads this that thinks toronto can't compete or isn't even close to utah or other teams in the west, your mistaken."

so to answer your question, i don't think the jazz are so much better then toronto.

seifer0406 · 02-12-2008, 02:24 AM

Completely different teams imo.

Boozer is a beast inside, Bosh is more finesse. Okur and Bargnani are similar, though right now Okur gives you a tad bit more production. AK has a lot more to offer offensively than Moon. Defensively the 2 are pretty similar as both are good help defenders and gets steals and blocks, but offensively AK sometimes acts as the point forward and gets a creates shots for his team mates. Moon doesn't give you anything besides maybe a rare jumper or layup/dunk every now and then. Brewer and AP are different as well. Brewer scores inside, he's shooting 54% from the field right now. AP is a much better outside shooter and perhaps the better player, but as I've said repeatedly, the Raptors are loaded with shooters on the wing and we need someone who can slash and score somewhere else.

Deron Williams is better than Ford and Calderon at the moment. Our combo gives us more production throughout 48 minutes, but down the stretch Deron Williams is just better. His court vision is on par with either Ford and Calderon, and he shoots it better than Ford and goes inside better than Calderon. However, I don't think it's the point guard play that's setting the 2 teams apart, the Raptors are good enough as it is at the PG position.

Also the difference between 2 teams is more than 4 wins. The East sucks and Utah has already gone to the Western finals with that squad. They have struggled at times this year, but in my mind they are amongst the top teams in the league. The Raptors however, are not there right now.

SkywalkerAC · 02-12-2008, 03:06 AM

I don't think there's a huge disparity in the two. The Jazz have hit their stride and are playing solid basketball; just a few weeks ago they were in trouble out west. The Raps haven't hit their stride yet. I think they would have if TJ hadn't gone down when he did but that is neither here nor there. The Raps could easily be 9 or 10 games above .500 right now...but we're not.

The Jazz get pretty good production from Okur and we're only starting to get reasonable production from our starting center. The Jazz have been working on the same page of Jerry Sloan's book for eons, Sam Mitchell is really only getting started.

Jazz vs Raps in a 7 game series? I think you give it to the Jazz because they've got that tough edge to them but it would be a close one, mark my words.

narrator · 02-12-2008, 04:43 PM

Yes, both teams have PG/PF combos but the nature of said combos are different: Boozer makes his living inside while Bosh uses (or should use) his speed and jump shot (which he loves a little too much, IMO) to beat his match-ups. I'd agree with your point about the benches except for Nesterovic v. Millsap: Millsap is the rebounding beast Toronto needs since both Bargnani and Bosh prefer not to do said dirty work. Nesterovic doesn't mind (and neither does Humphries) but he's not the rebounder Millsap is.

The key difference is, probably, the coach. Mitchell is getting better every game and every year (which surprises and pleases me). Sloan's been running the same system for 600 years.

I do think, though, that the teams are fundamentally different. Though both rely on the 3-point shot, Toronto is more up-tempo with high screen and rolls and pick and pops while Utah doesn't run as much (though Williams can push it with the best of them) and runs harder, lower screen and rolls.

southeasy · 02-12-2008, 06:14 PM

it goes without saying aswell that Utah has only just started playing well w/ the addition of a shooter in Korver (they really were not even considered factors in the west before that), on top of that they have been relatively healthy the whole season.

Toronto had a really demanding early schedule (maybe the toughest of the league) we were without our usual starting PG for 20+ games, had to get used to Jose playing 40+ minutes, our star player in Bosh missed about 5 games. Andrea Bargnani (who is supposed to be an important cog in the wheel) was basically MIA on the court for half the season up until recently, so it was as if we were playing a man down (hypothetically), and we are starting a rookie at SF...

i'm not making excuses, but truthfully, I honestly feel it is not that great of a difference & i really cannot even complain about how well we have adapted to all of the above as a team this season. i feel alot of us overlook that.

**bigbabyjesus** · 02-12-2008, 08:49 PM

I already wrote out my explanation on the thread in the general forum..

But look at it like this.

One is a contender, in a MUCH better conference. One would be lucky to get out of the first round, in a much weaker conference.

Can't believe I'm reiterating what Jizzy said but hes right on

SkywalkerAC · 02-12-2008, 10:06 PM

by playoff time we'll also be a "contender" in our conference (to the same extent that Utah will be in theirs). they won't have any better chance of getting out of the first round.

AK-47 · 02-12-2008, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

by playoff time we'll also be a "contender" in our conference (to the same extent that Utah will be in theirs). they won't have any better chance of getting out of the first round.

And this means diddley squat on which team is the better team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by southeasy

it goes without saying aswell that Utah has only just started playing well w/ the addition of a shooter in Korver (they really were not even considered factors in the west before that), on top of that they have been relatively healthy the whole season.

And they got Okur back, both Korver and Okur spread out the defense so teams can't just play zone all day against the jazz like they could during the losing streak. The jazz started I think 13-5 to start the season, had a bad December (something like 16-16 record after the month), and then a great January and it has continued into February.

Quote:

Originally Posted by southeasy

Toronto had a really demanding early schedule (maybe the toughest of the league) we were without our usual starting PG for 20+ games, had to get used to Jose playing 40+ minutes, our star player in Bosh missed about 5 games. Andrea Bargnani (who is supposed to be an important cog in the wheel) was basically MIA on the court for half the season up until recently, so it was as if we were playing a man down (hypothetically), and we are starting a rookie at SF...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stats/...sortColumn=sos
http://www.boxscorebasketball.com/strength.htm
http://teamrankings.com/nba/27powerratings.php3

According to these the Jazz and Raptors haven't had that much difference in the SOS. The Jazz haven't been injury free either.

Games missed
Okur - 8 games (during December where the Jazz were struggling)
AK - 5 games
Harpring - 6 games
Hart(backup point) - 8 games

Of course missing TJ Ford 20 games hurt you a lot more, but it's not like the Jazz have been 100% either. Every team has injuries and you have to go through that.

The Raptors wouldn't even be in the playoffs in the Western Conference (11th seed if they were in the west), and not to forget you play all those tough west teams 2 times instead of 3-4 times the jazz play them.

SkywalkerAC · 02-12-2008, 11:11 PM

I think the main difference is physical strength. Deron is a beast of a point guard, Brewer is a beast of a 2 guard (now there's a player I wish we had), Harpring is basically the strongest white basketball player ever, Kirilenko has the length of Bargnani, Boozer's a beast, and Okur is a Big Turk. Good ol toughness usually comes back to muscles, and the mentality to use them.

And the Raps ball movement just isn't what I expected thus far, though I expect it to come back with TJ. Utah's always very crisp making their plays. Envious of those back cuts.

seifer0406 · 02-12-2008, 11:25 PM

If you compare players though, I'd take Bosh and Bargnani over Boozer and Okur though. Maybe not this year, but next year or even the year after that I would think our duo would be better.

imo our team will be much improved if we can get a physical wing that can score inside and be rough against opposing wings. This was the part that was lacking last year and Colangelo only added Delfino to improve that weakness. Delfino is a good player but we still need more in that area. Joey Graham is a lost cause and Garbo's future is in jeopardy, therefore the help need to come from the draft or f/a or trade.

**bigbabyjesus** · 02-13-2008, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

by playoff time we'll also be a "contender" in our conference (to the same extent that Utah will be in theirs). they won't have any better chance of getting out of the first round.

this Utah team made it the Western conference finals last year.. our team? couldn't make it out of the first round

i know the west is even tougher this year, but that doesn't take away from the fact that utah is still a contender, and if we were in the west we wouldn't even make the playoffs most likely.

SkywalkerAC · 02-13-2008, 04:31 AM

Are they really a contender though? Right now? Will they be any more capable of taking out LA or Phoenix or San Antonio than we are of taking out Boston or Detroit?

Their record is impressive and ours is not. They performed last playoffs and we didn't. They're playing better ball right now. But are they significantly better, head to head?

More importantly, are they going to improve as much, down the stretch, as we will? See, I still see great things for this team, THIS SEASON. I expect them to get to the Jazz' level. Call me crazy.

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