lucky777s

Does the last 7 games against the Pacers reinforce the basic problem with the Raps?

I think the real problem with our team is the 'buddy ball' mentality that Doc Rivers mentioned after one game in BOS. We play a 'friendly' game. Back and forth. You score, I score. And against bad teams or teams on cold nights we are efficient enough to win.

I think that is why we split the last 7 games with the Pacers with home team winning each time. We are both mentally weak teams that play buddy ball. Offensive based teams with fairly equal skill. Home crowd gives the adrenaline boost to play a bit harder on D or ride a big offensive run to the win.

This is why a hard working team like MIL can give us fits, and why the top 4 teams generally wipe us out at home or on the road unless they are having a really off night.

Our D is better than it was but it is still mainly 'buddy ball' with our offensive efficiency and depth doing most of the damage for us. We rarely make teams uncomfortable in their offense.

seifer0406

I don't think it's a matter of our playing style but rather the player's mental focus.

We are not as good as the elite teams where they can go out and beat other teams with talent alone. Our team needs guys to exert maximum effort on most nights and when they don't do that a team like the Pacers can beat us. When we play against tougher teams our effort is usually there but against weaker teams sometimes we don't. It is the jobs of the veterans, Hedo/Bosh/Calderon/Jack to make sure that everyone is focused every night.

ballocks

we just let up 130 pts against a lottery team, after a full day of rest, after we had just proven we were better than them on sunday, without arguably our worst defensive player (turkoglu) and a rookie whose reason for not getting fourth quarter minutes is his poor defense (derozan).

i can only imagine how many points the pacers would've scored had turk and derozan played and we were on the back end of a back-to-back.

peace

Porn_Player

I'm not going to ramble on about this loss too much. We bounced back and beat another lottery bound team the night after...

And whatever you say about the Pacers squad they certainly have some capable players so splitting a series with them isn't the most heartbreaking of scenarios.

We're still pretty solid in the 5th spot so I think we gotta let this loss fly, the team isn't supposed to be winning every game so the fact some of you are up in arms about it shows how far we've come in the last few months.

__________________

seifer0406

We were indeed shorthanded for the last 2 games. Some of you may not agree about Hedo's impact to the game but with both him and Calderon out our offense does appear rather stagnant at times. It's good to see Wright getting out of his early season slump and Weems is playing well but those 2 still cannot replace some of the ball movement that Hedo brings us.

lucky777s

We scored 108 and 115 the last 2 games without Hedo.

The only impact of him being out is that we have to go a little deeper into our bench for more minutes. We really don't miss anything he brings, because he has not brought very much to the table all year. With Jack starting Hedo could take some pressure off him. Thats about it.

Weems has had a bigger impact in more games this season than Turk. Yes, we have to live with some dumb mistakes from Weems but the way he pushes the ball off rebounds, fills the lanes, makes some nice blocks and steals, and uses his dribble to open up passing lanes is a big plus for our team and energizes the crowd. And with Turks horrible TO's this year it is hard to be too critical of Weems 'rookie' gaffes.

You look at how DD has improved with solid, steady minutes and you see similar progress from Weems. If DD and Weems can work on their 3ball range this summer and improve their ability to finish drives a bit we could have a great wing tandem for many years.

If only Hedo were out you would see zero dropoff for the Raps. Its having Jose and DD out at the same time that hurts our flow. That's 3 of our top 8 and screws up rotations.

To me the Raps are much more enjoyable to watch without Hedo.

seifer0406

The point total really don't tell the whole story especially in the Pacer game where they scored 130.

When I watch the games it's quite apparent that the ball movement is a lot better with either Jose or Turk on the floor. Without the 2 of them in the lineup we might be able to get by the lesser teams but it'll be tough when we play against some real opponents that are capable of guarding our guys in 1 on 1 situations. In the Nets game it wasn't until late in the game that we pulled away and the overall impression is that we would've lost last night had we played another team.

I do like what Weems brings to us in terms of athleticism, but I can't buy into him being a starter just yet. Perhaps if we go back to starting Calderon we could go with a DD/Weems duo but with Jack at the point there just isn't enough passing ability from the 3 of them.

lucky777s

It just occurred to me that Turk is Jalen Rose part 2. Only worse because we are the ones who gave him the big contract. I think that has been in the back of my mind for a while now, cause something always rubbed me the wrong way about him. That whole 'ease into the season' attitude. Big guys that think of themselves as PGs. Limited repertoire of moves. Not quick. Not good defenders.

I remember so many fans saying how great jalen was here and that he should play PG more. He never got another contract. Just a quick look in Phx after NY waived him. Will be same for Turk. He is already in semi-retirement.

The scary thing is that jalen may have actually been a better player for us.

seifer0406

If I remember correctly Rose actually played pretty decent for us in the year or 2 that he was here. It's hard to blame him for not making a bigger impact for us when our team was going through the VC transition stage.

I don't really see the problem with having big guys that are versatile and can handle the ball. There surely hasn't been a problem for those guys to find success in the NBA. Afterall, Jalen Rose did help lead Indiana back in the late 90s to a number of conference finals and 1 final appearance. We saw what happened with Turk last season and to say that he was important to Orlando would be an understatement.

Personally I don't see Turkoglu getting another contract after he finishes with us either. When Rose was done he was 33 with busted knees. Turkoglu would be 35 or 36.

ballocks

boy, you really don't like turk. i honestly don't know if i have a problem with him- so much of my attention is (and has always been) centered on the other players. there are just so many issues with them that i don't even get around to thinking about how turkoglu may or may not be hurting the team. god's honest truth.

but one thing i do like about him: those ft's against the lakers. or at least what they represent (i.e. change). if that had been anyone else either today or in recent memory- with the exception of bosh, imo- he would've split those and we would've lost in overtime.

it's crazy to say that. but i'm no less convinced. if it was calderon or parker on the line, specifically, we would've been lucky to get to overtime. and i would've bet the house on it. literally. i can already see parker hunched over at mid-court while being consoled by calderon and mike evans, "don't worry about it, you'll get 'em next time." or calderon sucking in air through clenched teeth, nodding with his palms out, "that was bad."

it's stupid to psychoanalyze these dudes but it's also impossible to ignore their results. they fold under pressure. they have some inferiority complex that allows them to perform well with the house's money, but when it actually matters they feel like they don't deserve it and they fail. i had always hoped that this was an illusion but not only did it not waver over time, it became more noticeable, to the point that it started to define the entire team.

i got so sick of that. i still have a bad feeling when i think about it.

either way, turk was faced with the same predicament on that sunday afternoon and he did what any confident professional would do- he nailed those shots but it was his reaction that was even more impressive: he didn't look relieved, he didn't look... anything. and it didn't look like he was trying to appear that way either. it honestly looked like he didn't care that he hit those shots, and he didn't realize how important they might have been to the culture of the team.

for me, that was the biggest relief.

anyway, i like having that dynamic around. he could be totally useless on the court (think jelani mccoy) but i wouldn't care- i think his personality, at least at this stage in his career, has some value to the team, especially our team, one that's been such a failure for so long and expects no less than the least.

peace

seifer0406

I honestly don't see the point to constantly beat on this dead horse when you've already made about 10 threads about Hedo already. You should realize that he's not going to leave the Raptors this year and chances are he will still be here next year. Give him some time to show us what he has and understand the reason why we brought him in.

I maintain the opinion that he is the best small forward that we've had since T-Mac. He might have his struggles offensively now but I have to say I haven't been this comfortable with our wing lineup for a long time. It sure beats putting out Joey Graham and Anthony Parker and seeing Ray Allen and Paul Pierce on the opposing side.

lucky777s

I think ORL was the perfect storm for turk.

He was not a big time player until age 28 with them under the new system with all the new players. That team needed Turk to do certain things that matched his skill set very well, and the personnel there made him even better in those areas. For example, some of his awkward drives look a lot better when you can throw the ball up over your shoulder and know Dwight is there to clean up the mess on the lob or rebound. And Turk's play did not replicate Jameer's strong points at all. Lewis was also just as big a playoff hero for ORL.

His versatility is a bit of a myth. I see a very predictable and limited playmaker. Much like Jalen who was smart and experienced enough to make it work for him as he got older.

It is not the same fit here. If he was truly versatile he would be able to integrate his game much easier here with all our skilled players. Instead he whines about the way he is used.

He also had a lot of bad shooting nights in the playoffs, bad starts especially that you typically only see superstars get away with. And those step back 3's did not inspire me with great confidence that he is a true 'closer'. It was a nice little run in a long career.

I see a guy like Garbo (with his 3yr/12mill contract) as a better all around player and facilitator. I even see what Stackhouse did for the Bucks against us and see a better impact.

I can't remember when Jalen got his big contract in IND. He had his breakout year in 99/00 when IND went to the Finals and then they were in rebuild mode. Smits, Mullin, Jackson, DaleDavis all moved on. Then AD the next year. Never played for a top team again. Eerily similar, but with Hedo being much older in his 'breakout'.

lucky777s

I actually don't hate him. Just don't like him on this team. Bad fit.

And I can't see how those FTs against the Lakers were any different than Lamond Murray nailing some big shots and making a block on Duncan to beat the Spurs years ago. Or Ukic beating the Spurs for that matter. Changes nothing. We are just so desperate to find something positive about the guy.

I have made too many posts about him. Part of that is just trying to keep some action going on this board. And part is that I just can't ignore how bad the signing has been thus far and hope that BC ships him out.

I will try to cut back but when you are such a high profile and expensive signing you are going to be under the microscope.

seifer0406

I don't think Lewis played as well as Hedo in last year's playoffs. It was pretty obvious especially in the Cavs series that almost everything that Orlando did in the final 6 minutes of the game starts with the ball in Hedo's hands. They couldn't rely on Dwight because of his poor (although improved) foul shooting and Lewis/Alston aren't really playmakers.

Perhaps versatility isn't the best word to use here. I was referring to how ordinary 6-10 guys aren't suppose to handle the ball as much. While Turk can do that he doesn't do the things that 6-10 guys are suppose to do. But still, that type of game has been proven to be valuable when used correctly. I think you can say with confidence that Orlando wouldn't have beaten the Cavs if it weren't for the duo of "versatile" big guys of Lewis/Hedo.

I like Garbo's game but come on, he is way too slow to play the 3 in the NBA. Hedo at least can stay with some of the smaller guys (albeit he's not Bruce Bowen). Garbo also never found his offense in the NBA. Hedo at least is only in a slump, unless he remains there forever.

I think the contract that we should be more worried about is Calderon's. When Colangelo signed him he surely didn't picture Jose to be a backup. Although right now there isn't any problem between the 2 I would only imagine that it is a matter of time before we're hit with the "Who starts" problem again. If we're going to trade Calderon it'll be hard to convince others that he's a starter when we aren't even starting him ourselves.