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jazzy1 · 08-23-2004, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hobojoe!

I didn't say he was a cancer, he just has that reputation. Don't get me wrong, I like Jamison a lot as a player, I just don't think he's a good fit in Washington at all.

That's debateable. The difference is still big enough. Jamison is on a max contract, Stackhouse is only in the $7-8 Million range I believe, and the difference including the #5 overall pick is still about $5 Million.

Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala or Luke Jackson absolutely would help the Wizards this year. It makes little to no sense to pass up on one of those guys in my opinion.

I'm not, I actually said the Nets did indeed slip.

Solid Points.

You have to look deeper than that. They lost Boozer, but Gooden isn't much of a step down, he could breakout this year. Add in the fact that they have Luke Jackson, and LeBron's anticipated improvement, you have to think the Cavs are on the rise despite losing Boozer.

The Celtics have three excellent rookies who should have a big impact right away. They retained Mark Blount as well.

Again, it all goes back to this. This is where we disagree, and I guess nothing will settle it until they play the season. I don't think the Wizards have improved, I explained why in several of my posts, including in depth in my last post responding to Shanghai Kid.

Gordon is a leading contender for ROY, Nocioni will have a big impact, Deng is a nice player(who the Wizards should have) that will be solid this year in every facet of the game.

It's not like you gave up nothing. I think you're undervaluing the Top 5 pick, not to mention an expiring deal(and your backup 4) and a proven 20 ppg scorer. All this, to add a more efficient version of Stackhouse on a max contract. Jamison doesn't play anything like Jamison, but the offensive production is what I'm comparing, which is similar.

What exactly have I said that doesn't make sense to you?

I don't think that, but let's be honest, who on the Wizards is ready to be a franchise-caliber player right now? I don't think anyone is. Kwame could be in the future, so could Arenas, but neither are there yet.

Once. Honestly, what could he have done to make Dallas not make the playoffs? If he had played horribly, the Mavs had the luxury of just being able to keep him on the bench, no problems.

Injuries happen. Fact is, several of the Wizards key players are injury prone, theres no reason to assume they won't get hurt again this year.

Again, that could happen this year again.

Not much. If you're depending on Steve Blake, Juan Dixon, Jarvis Hayes or Brendan Haywood to win a game, it's not going to be pretty.

Peeler is not going to help very much at all, and I've already addressed Jamison.

That I have to agree with you on. I love Ramos, I think he was a steal indeed. But is he really a difference maker? I sincerely doubt it, especially not right away.

See you have selective reasoning.

You're telling me Gordon, Deng and Niconin are gonna be all this and that but guys who have actually played in the league last year aren't gonna progress.

You must have forgotten. Jarvis Hayes was 2nd team all rookie. Jared Jeffries in year 2 after and ACL and Steve Blake a very underrated player.

Deng, Iggy and Luke Jackson all play sf, Neither of them are better than Hayes. The Bulls offered to trade for Hayes than to make their pick. So in essence they thought more of Hayes than they did Deng.

So none of those players would get much time and why be redundant and take a sf for the 3rd year in a row thats unproven. Get it.

Now your only real rationale for dissing Jamison is you don't think its a good fit. I think Stack makes around 9-10 mill another 2 for the 5th pick or 1 and change and that difference is only about 1-2 mill in difference maybe 3 at most.

The Pistons don't have 1 franchise caliber player they do it with teamwork and balance.

I think Kwame could break-out and Arenas is already a good player.

Who exactly is injury prone WHOM on our roster is always hurt. I thought so.

How exactly is Gordon gonna get so much playing time behind Hinrich and if you play both together they'll be the worst defensive backcourt in the league because neither can guard the sg spot worth a darn.

Bulls are stuck in place still waiting on young players to develop. You win with Vets.

Okay now I see Jamsion was 6th man but made no imapct why did he even get the award.

Again I've never heard Jamsion called cancerous in reputation you're just saying it to say something its not rooted in fact just your words. Nelson the mans coach says he was terrific as did Ernie G.

Like I said no real basis for none of your post.

You credit every other teams young players but run ours down.

Delonte West, Tony Allen and Jefferson are supposed to take the league by storm thats comical. They will help the Celtics be better a couple years down the road the Celtics fortunes rests on Pierce, Blount and Rickey Davis the Vets not rookies.

Yeah again speaking on a young player in Gordon who has no toughness and worse defense than Boozer. Plus he's a far worst rebounder but you expect a breakout thats even more comical. Save me the Luke Jackson stuff he might help some but losing a tough rugged pf and adding a lightweight is hilarious.

You must think Lebron is superman.

Again doesn't make much sense.

JoshSmith42 · 08-23-2004, 03:48 PM

So Lebron ISN'T superman?

**Damian Necronamous** · 08-23-2004, 03:56 PM

PG: Gilbert Arenas...Steve Blake...Juan Dixon
SG: Larry Hughes...Anthony Peeler
SF: Antawn Jamison...Jarvis Hayes...Jared Jeffries
PF: Kwame Brown...Samaki Walker...Michael Ruffin
C: Etan Thomas...Brendan Haywood...Peter John Ramos

The Wizards have done well in getting a more balanced team, 3/5 of their starting lineup are actually former GS Warriors. However, there is still something missing with this team and that is veteran leadership. I think they should trade Larry Hughes for some productive veteran backups and draft picks, and then start Jarvis Hayes at SG.

hobojoe · 08-23-2004, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jazzy1!

You're telling me Gordon, Deng and Niconin are gonna be all this and that but guys who have actually played in the league last year aren't gonna progress.

Quote:

You must have forgotten. Jarvis Hayes was 2nd team all rookie. Jared Jeffries in year 2 after and ACL and Steve Blake a very underrated player.

You must forget(or want to forget) that Hayes got progressively worse as the season went along. I like Jeffries and Blake a lot, but let's be honest, neither will be anything more than average backups at best.

Quote:

Deng, Iggy and Luke Jackson all play sf, Neither of them are better than Hayes. The Bulls offered to trade for Hayes than to make their pick. So in essence they thought more of Hayes than they did Deng.

I think all three of those players could be better than Hayes this season. Who says Hayes is going to get better? Being young doesn't necessarily mean you'll get better. Hayes definitely didn't get better as the year went along.

Quote:

So none of those players would get much time and why be redundant and take a sf for the 3rd year in a row thats unproven. Get it.

No, it's not redundant. The other two have shown that they aren't the answer at that position.

Quote:

Now your only real rationale for dissing Jamison is you don't think its a good fit. I think Stack makes around 9-10 mill another 2 for the 5th pick or 1 and change and that difference is only about 1-2 mill in difference maybe 3 at most.

Stack makes $7 Million even this season, the number 5 pick makes $2 Million and change. And my reasoning for dissing Jamison is not only that he's not a good fit, he's just absolutely redundant for a squad full of players who can score around 20 ppg given the shots, and not play a lick of defense. He's not at all necessary on the team.

Quote:

The Pistons don't have 1 franchise caliber player they do it with teamwork and balance.

Well, you got 2/3 of that right. The Pistons did it with teamwork, balance and defense. The Wizards have one of those three, and that's balance. They're horrendous defensively, and are full of selfish players.

Quote:

I think Kwame could break-out and Arenas is already a good player.

I agree.

Quote:

Who exactly is injury prone WHOM on our roster is always hurt. I thought so.

Larry Hughes? Gilbert Arenas(27 games missed last season, 35 in 01-02, only one healthy season).

Quote:

How exactly is Gordon gonna get so much playing time behind Hinrich and if you play both together they'll be the worst defensive backcourt in the league because neither can guard the sg spot worth a darn.

Not like they're going to be a good defensive team anyway. Gordon is going to play SG, where he's better at anyway.

Quote:

Bulls are stuck in place still waiting on young players to develop. You win with Vets.

Not always true.

Quote:

Okay now I see Jamsion was 6th man but made no imapct why did he even get the award.

I didn't say he didn't make an impact, but Dallas certainly could've survived without him. You realize you're saying your franchise is going to turn around because of the acquisition of the best bench player in the league, don't you? Not to discount Jamison, winning 6th man is a fine accomplishment, but come on, you're talking about it like it's the MVP award.

[quote] Again I've never heard Jamsion called cancerous in reputation you're just saying it to say something its not rooted in fact just your words. Nelson the mans coach says he was terrific as did Ernie G. [quote]
You've never heard Jamison called a cancer? Wow. What are Nelson and Ernie G. going to say? They didn't trade him because he was as great as you're making him out to be. When was the last time you heard a coach or anyone like that call a player a cancer?

Quote:

Like I said no real basis for none of your post.

What is the basis for your posts? We're debating an opinion, I'm backing mine up with facts and my opinions, you're backing yours up well too, I'll give you that.

Quote:

You credit every other teams young players but run ours down.

Nope, not every other team. The Wizards are one of the four of five teams this season that I've just kind of picked out, that I really don't think will do well this season. Teams that I think are destined to be bad, and made some bad offseason moves that I don't agree with.

Quote:

Delonte West, Tony Allen and Jefferson are supposed to take the league by storm thats comical. They will help the Celtics be better a couple years down the road the Celtics fortunes rests on Pierce, Blount and Rickey Davis the Vets not rookies.

What's comical is the way you put words in my mouth. They're not the center of the team, they're more weapons around Pierce to make the team better.

Quote:

Yeah again speaking on a young player in Gordon who has no toughness and worse defense than Boozer. Plus he's a far worst rebounder but you expect a breakout thats even more comical. Save me the Luke Jackson stuff he might help some but losing a tough rugged pf and adding a lightweight is hilarious.

Gooden is a very good rebounder, he's more than capable of a double-double this season. Luke Jackson still flies under the radar

Quote:

You must think Lebron is superman.

Nope, but a Top 5 shooting guard in the league this season.

Quote:

Again doesn't make much sense.

Makes plenty of sense. Why don't you try disputing my arguments rather than dismissing them as perposterous.

Shanghai Kid · 08-23-2004, 06:53 PM

Hobojoe, Arenas missed games his 1rst season, not because of injuries, but because the team simply had him on the IR and wasn't willing to give him playing time. Only when Hughes got injured did they take Arenas off the IR and give him a chance. Hughes is the only player who has consistently gotten injuries every season, but Peeler and Hayes can definetly fill in. Jamison has the longest reigning streak of games played in the NBA, he's certainly not injury prone.

Jamison isn't redudant, he's a player who doesn't need the ball in his hands to score which perfectly compliments Gilbert Arenas and Kwame Brown .

Why are you running down Hayes? It wasn't so much him regressing as the season went on as it was him getting exhausted. He wasn't ready for the playing time he got. But by all accounts, he was the best player at the Vegas Summer League, torching Luke Jackson and getting his shot off any time he wanted.

I think it's pretty stupid for you to figure that all the Bulls rookies and all the Celtics rookies are just going to be good contributors yet young players on the Wiz are just going to regress.

Why can't Peeler contribute next season?

Since when did Jamison have a reputation as a cancer? By all accounts, he's a good lockerroom guy.

Hobojoe, why are the Wizards going to be so bad defensively? Explain it to me please. I honestly want to know why the Wizards will be worse defensively then a team like Toronto or NY, please explain it to me.

Hobojoe, you keep giving hints like saying that L8 was our backup 4, that shows your not too educated on the Wizards situation.

Honestly, in the East, how can you count out anybody? And did you read that Sports Illustrated article about the Wiz?

Pan Mengtu · 08-23-2004, 07:03 PM

Wait a second, hobo... you don't like the Jamison trade because you think he contract is too big and he's a cancer? Well o.k., assuming that's true they still got rid of Stackhouse who has a big contract and is an even bigger cancer. Can't go wrong when you get rid of Stack.

jazzy1 · 08-23-2004, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shanghai Kid!
Jazzy, don't bother, I have already argued with Hobojoe on the general board for pgs and pgs. Look at his sig, if he doesn't hate the Wiz, he sure loves mocking Wiz fans.

The bottom line is, their aren't many players in the league that would of improved our offense more than Jamison will. The reason is, on offense, we needed a high percentage SF more than anything else. Defensively, we can't be any worse than last season. We gave up like 30 points to every average or above average SF.

My bad Shanghai had I read this I wouldn't have even started with this guy. My bad I get the picture now.

jazzy1 · 08-23-2004, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hobojoe!

You must forget(or want to forget) that Hayes got progressively worse as the season went along. I like Jeffries and Blake a lot, but let's be honest, neither will be anything more than average backups at best.

I think all three of those players could be better than Hayes this season. Who says Hayes is going to get better? Being young doesn't necessarily mean you'll get better. Hayes definitely didn't get better as the year went along.

No, it's not redundant. The other two have shown that they aren't the answer at that position.

Stack makes $7 Million even this season, the number 5 pick makes $2 Million and change. And my reasoning for dissing Jamison is not only that he's not a good fit, he's just absolutely redundant for a squad full of players who can score around 20 ppg given the shots, and not play a lick of defense. He's not at all necessary on the team.

Well, you got 2/3 of that right. The Pistons did it with teamwork, balance and defense. The Wizards have one of those three, and that's balance. They're horrendous defensively, and are full of selfish players.

I agree.

Larry Hughes? Gilbert Arenas(27 games missed last season, 35 in 01-02, only one healthy season).

Not like they're going to be a good defensive team anyway. Gordon is going to play SG, where he's better at anyway.

Not always true.

I didn't say he didn't make an impact, but Dallas certainly could've survived without him. You realize you're saying your franchise is going to turn around because of the acquisition of the best bench player in the league, don't you? Not to discount Jamison, winning 6th man is a fine accomplishment, but come on, you're talking about it like it's the MVP award.

What is the basis for your posts? We're debating an opinion, I'm backing mine up with facts and my opinions, you're backing yours up well too, I'll give you that.

Nope, not every other team. The Wizards are one of the four of five teams this season that I've just kind of picked out, that I really don't think will do well this season. Teams that I think are destined to be bad, and made some bad offseason moves that I don't agree with.

What's comical is the way you put words in my mouth. They're not the center of the team, they're more weapons around Pierce to make the team better.

Gooden is a very good rebounder, he's more than capable of a double-double this season. Luke Jackson still flies under the radar

Nope, but a Top 5 shooting guard in the league this season.

Makes plenty of sense. Why don't you try disputing my arguments rather than dismissing them as perposterous.

Last time I'll read this post now that Shanghai has hipped me to your program.

Hayes got progressively worse when the Wizards changed their priorities in the shot distribution department. They were playing perimeter more, early in the season and by mid season they were going inside to Kwame thus the drop PLUS HE WAS INJURED.

Again the Bulls offered to trade for hayes as opposed to picking Deng. Thats a widely known fact . So its rational to say they liked Hayes more than they liked Deng which supports my point.

Hayes and JJ are better as prospects than Iggy, Deng and Jackson. Iggy is really a 2 playing 3, Jackson plays no defense, and Deng is just okay.

The Wizards aren't the Pistons but the basic formula the Wizards can win with use balance and teamwork. They have shot blockers so the defense will be okay not great but okay.

Again who said Jamison was gonna be the spearhead for a turnaround when injuries caused the slide anyway.

I think your premise that they should expect for their whole starting line-up to get injured is ridculous. Thats what basically occured last season no team had more key players injured then the Wizards did last season.

Again another Jamison upgrade Stack has been nicked since hes been here and Jamison has been an iron man for the last 5 seasons.

Again an upgrade Jamison gives us balance offensively like Shanghai illustrated brillantly because he doesn't requre the ball he'll mold well.

You say West, Allen and Jefferson are more weapons to make the team better is different from saying they're gonna make the team much better.

2 Guys who were reaches in the 1st rd and a highschool guy not named Lebron or Amare are gonna blow past the Wizards. Yeah okay.

Gooden is not a very good rebounder nor defender nor inside presence. He's a soft jump shooting 6'10 guy with a few post moves and no strength.

BTW I have been disputing your argument and come to the conclusion that they are preposterous get the point.

I love Lebron he ain't superman he couldn't carry the team to the playoffs and I think your missing their key offseason acquire which is Eric Snow not Luke Jackson nor Gooden.

Snow a solid gritty vet who brigns toughness defense and a good lockeroom presence is what will help them improve.

I like Luke Jackson but I don't expect a record altering player I expect a shooter who can help open the floor but because his defense is so terrible won't get enough burn to have an influence.

I really don't care what your opinion is about the Wizards chances this up coming season but what IRKS me is the idea that anyone doesn't like the move of getting Jamiison.

You obvioulsy don't watch the Wizards often or you wouldn't have that opinion.

He adds in areas that we were weak both on and off the court.

Getting Stack and laet 2 malcontents outta here and dumping a lottery pick for a proven vet who doesn't need the ball in his hands blends perfectly with what the Wizards need.

We have had lottery picks up the backside here, Wizards fans don't want anymore unless they are franchise turning ones and neither Iggy,Deng nor Jackson are even close to that level.

They are on the level or below with the ones we already have.

Like I said Gordon isn't gonna imapct the bottomeline at all with the Bulls getting posted up all season foul trouble will run him outta games playing the sg spot.

I like the kid but I'm not kidding myself about whats gonna happen.

adarsh1 · 08-23-2004, 08:57 PM

"You must forget(or want to forget) that Hayes got progressively worse as the season went along. I like Jeffries and Blake a lot, but let's be honest, neither will be anything more than average backups at best"

Let's be honest...Blake is a very good point guard...he is a control point and he could start for some of the teams out there...now jeffries on the other hand i think will never fully recover from the acl and will be a backup pf/sf for the rest of his career.... hayes is a good shooter but he will not get worse next year...how is it that young players on other teams won't get worse"

"I think all three of those players could be better than Hayes this season. Who says Hayes is going to get better? Being young doesn't necessarily mean you'll get better. Hayes definitely didn't get better as the year went along."

Being young doesn't necessarily mean taht in your rookie season you are going to pan out...the only player in that bunch that i liked was luke jackson cuz he is a hayes type player and we could have two good perimeter shooters in hayes and jackson to complement arenas, kwame, and hughes

"No, it's not redundant. The other two have shown that they aren't the answer at that position."

Isn't it a little too early to tell that Hayes and Jeffries aren't the answer at the small forward position. Hayes is going into his second season after an all rookie second team appearance...and this is basically jeffries's first normal offseason because the first two years he was rehabbing from that acl tear or injury or whatever

(post #19)

quote:
Originally posted by jazzy1!

You're telling me Gordon, Deng and Niconin are gonna be all this and that but guys who have actually played in the league last year aren't gonna progress.

quote:
You must have forgotten. Jarvis Hayes was 2nd team all rookie. Jared Jeffries in year 2 after and ACL and Steve Blake a very underrated player.

You must forget(or want to forget) that Hayes got progressively worse as the season went along. I like Jeffries and Blake a lot, but let's be honest, neither will be anything more than average backups at best.

quote:
Deng, Iggy and Luke Jackson all play sf, Neither of them are better than Hayes. The Bulls offered to trade for Hayes than to make their pick. So in essence they thought more of Hayes than they did Deng.

I think all three of those players could be better than Hayes this season. Who says Hayes is going to get better? Being young doesn't necessarily mean you'll get better. Hayes definitely didn't get better as the year went along.

quote:
So none of those players would get much time and why be redundant and take a sf for the 3rd year in a row thats unproven. Get it.

No, it's not redundant. The other two have shown that they aren't the answer at that position.

quote:
Now your only real rationale for dissing Jamison is you don't think its a good fit. I think Stack makes around 9-10 mill another 2 for the 5th pick or 1 and change and that difference is only about 1-2 mill in difference maybe 3 at most.

"Stack makes $7 Million even this season, the number 5 pick makes $2 Million and change. And my reasoning for dissing Jamison is not only that he's not a good fit, he's just absolutely redundant for a squad full of players who can score around 20 ppg given the shots, and not play a lick of defense. He's not at all necessary on the team."

And laettner makes 6,187,500 this year. Added together Devin Harris's, Jerry Stackhouse's, and Christian Laettner's contract equals 15,929,380. However, Antawn Jamison's contract is only 12, 584, 688. So the Wizards also cut cap.

"Well, you got 2/3 of that right. The Pistons did it with teamwork, balance and defense. The Wizards have one of those three, and that's balance. They're horrendous defensively, and are full of selfish players"

They are bad defensively not horrendous. Yes, the only doubt with this team is whether Gilbert and Larry will give up the ball. Those are the only two selfish players on this team.

"I agree. "
Yep, I agree too

"Larry Hughes? Gilbert Arenas(27 games missed last season, 35 in 01-02, only one healthy season)."

I think Shanghai or Jazzy mentioned thsi but GSW put Arenas on the IR his first season even though he didn't get injured

"Not like they're going to be a good defensive team anyway. Gordon is going to play SG, where he's better at anyway"

They aren't going to be a good defensive team. Yes, putting Gordon at SG is a good position for him but still he is too short to cover any sg's

"Not always true"

Name me one situation where young players with no vets have one

"I didn't say he didn't make an impact, but Dallas certainly could've survived without him. You realize you're saying your franchise is going to turn around because of the acquisition of the best bench player in the league, don't you? Not to discount Jamison, winning 6th man is a fine accomplishment, but come on, you're talking about it like it's the MVP award."

The franchise will not turn around but they have added the sixth man of the year who can be counted on for 20 points and 8 rebounds. Also Jamison takes some pressure off Kwame so he can develop.

"What's comical is the way you put words in my mouth. They're not the center of the team, they're more weapons around Pierce to make the team better."

The only person on the celtics who can be counted on to produce is Tony Allen. West is only a sophomore and Jefferson is coming straight out of high school

"Gooden is a very good rebounder, he's more than capable of a double-double this season. Luke Jackson still flies under the radar"

Gooden is not a very good rebounder.. He averages less than 7 boards per game...However Luke Jackson does fly under the radar

"Nope, but a Top 5 shooting guard in the league this season."

So true

1. Kobe
2. Tmac
3. Lebron
4. Michael Redd
5. Lebron James

Shanghai Kid · 08-24-2004, 07:08 AM

Hobojoe, you should really stay off the Wiz board if your just going to come over and hate on our all players and our team. You say we're going to be that bad defensively, but theirs no reason why we'll be any worse defensively than a team like NY who everybody is picking to win the Atlantic Division. On the other hand, the Wizards have two legit low post players in Kwame and Jamison, they make up one of the best forward cominbations in the East to go with one of the best backcourts in the East in Arenas/Hughes. A team like Orlando may be in trouble since they have the equivalent of Arenas/Hughes in Francis/Mobley, but don't have ANY low post game.

In the starting line-up, the Wizards Hughes, Haywood, and Kwame, all those guys are above average defenders and Haywood is a very good C. Off the bench they have Peeler and Etan, Peeler was one of the best perimeter defenders in the league last season and Etan was 2nd in the league in blocked shots off the bench.

Arenas is a very capable defender. We're talking about a 6'3 player with a near 6'10 wingspan. He was never tought to play defense in Golden State, but Eddie Jordan is going to preach it this year. If the Wizards can just be an average defensive team to go with a spectacular offense that will be enough to make the playoffs. Now how do YOU like them apples?

prlindo · 08-24-2004, 08:36 AM

Ramos will surprise you guys don't worry Kwame Brown is bound to have a breakout season maybe this is his year

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