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Old 12-16-2015, 04:19 AM   #331 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

UVM Hoop Cat,

I am not proposing a "value school" if that means a cheap school. Thank you for pointing out some vagueness on my part.

I am saying we need to be so good, offer so much value, that enough families are willing to pay an extra $20k a year to attend UVM.
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:34 AM   #332 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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I am saying we need to be so good, offer so much value, that enough families are willing to pay an extra $20k a year to attend UVM.
We already do though and those families are already more than willing to spend that, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

I think this is the piece you might be missing-post-financial crisis in 2008 while the recovery of the last few years has absolutely eroded the middle class, the wealthy have added to their ranks and have seen enormous gains to their wealth.

Children from those families that are unable to gain admittance to the Ivies or select NESCAC schools are going to need to go somewhere- and they are not all of a sudden going to go to their state U....UVM because of its reputation, location and ability to offer the quintessential New England college experience, has always been able to capture those children from wealthy families. I really don't ever see that changing. And by the way- those are the students it needs to pay its bills. I went to UVM in late 90s/early 2000s and was by far one of the poorest students there. Many of the kids I went to school with had already been paying 40K a year for HS prep schools. Look around town at all the out of state Range Rovers, BMWs and Audi's- those aren't tourists; those are UVM students. My peers, classmates, friends were not middle class- except the ones that were from Vermont, which candidly like myself would be considered poor practically everywhere else.

The Middle Class families that are no longer able to afford UVM, they may go the UMass route....but guess what? That very well might be the right choice for them in their economic situation, and historically they probably always chose UMass. It does not make sense to spend 160K on a bachelors degree that you cannot afford, unless it's from Harvard or MIT. But guess what also at the end of the day, there are plenty more wealthy families to take that slot that can quite easily pay 160K.

Given you're based in Vermont, I suspect you may not see these shifts unfolding all over metro areas and their suburbs in the northeast. There are schools that should be very worried about the pressures facing higher ed due to erosion of middle class- but because of its positioning UVM is most definitely not one of them- certainly not to the level you are presenting.
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:39 AM   #333 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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I haven't heard a strong case for a major investment in an arena. Sure my butt hurts. That's not enough. That's not why students don't come to UVM to watch basketball. I intuitively believe state of the art health club and indoor and outdoor recreational facilities are more important. But that is only my intuition. I don't have the facts to defend my intuition.

We should not make a 30-50 year arena investment with the assumption that UVM will always be in a 320 plus member NCAA Div 1 basketball association. The power five conferences will make their own rules and go their own way. Some will join them. Fifteen years from now we'll be playing UNH, Maine, and Dartmouth but Duke and Syracuse will be playing with their real friends, paying players, and keeping their own TV money. The power five owns the new college football championship (not the NCAA). How long before they organize their own hoops championship?

The job of the new AD is to help us find our own level with our own real friends. President Sullivan is smart enough to know this. He did it at Washington University and he is an outspoken opponent of power five conference initiatives. Hopefully he and his new AD will be influential advocates for putting professional athletic schools and amateur athletic schools in different athletic associations.

Keeping up with the schools who are trying to keep up with the power five is a losing good plan. Just how long will Stony Brook, New Hampshire, Albany, Vermont and Maine put up with athletic programs with annual costs after revenue of $23 million, $18 million, $15 million, $13 million, and $13 million respectively? Each school in our conference has more net spending on sports than all the schools in the SEC combined. At those levels we are still underfunded. Doubling down is dumb.

Hopefully we are clever enough to be a tough, smart, leading public university which beats the odds by doing it in a tiny state with no money. I am optimistic.
The purpose of the new arena isn't to compete with the likes of Duke/Syracuse- the purpose is to bring essential facilities into the 21st century.

The place now is bordering on a safety hazard if it's not already- I've literally been at games when an older fan has needed medical attention in the stands from walking up the bleachers-that's how run down & outdated it is.
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:44 AM   #334 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

I've figured it out. Don't know why it wasn't clear to me sooner.

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Old 12-16-2015, 07:07 AM   #335 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

The issues at UVM are being felt at other neighboring public state universities. Some of these schools are handling things in opposite directions:


UConn
UConn Proposes 31 Percent In Tuition Increases Over Next Four Years
http://www.courant.com/education/hc-...201-story.html

UMaine
This University Is Letting Out-of-State Students Pay In-State Tuition Prices
http://time.com/money/4147557/univer...-tuition-deal/
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Old 12-16-2015, 07:16 AM   #336 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

1. I know we are not competing with Duke and Syracuse. But we are competing in an association dominated by schools with the same interests as Duke and Syracuse and probably more importantly the SEC. They are pushing rules and expectations impossible for the amateur programs to meet.

Here is an op-ed by Sullivan on the power five:

http://www.providencejournal.com/art...nion/310119951

Guy gets it and me thinks is both a fighter and a pragmatist.

2. This is what CFO Cate said about a recent budget shortfall:

"the world is changing and we have to evolve. The bottom like is there are fewer potential students out there, and there is increased competition to get them".

This is not the UVM you attended. It now needs twice as many out of state students to fill the school. Attendance by Vermonters stayed the same and enrollment went way up. This is why we are reducing enrollment and trying to quadruple international students. Take a look at the minutes for recent UVM board meetings. Interesting reading.

3. No I am not a conservative. I am as liberal as they come. I am not for cutting the state appropriation. I am an active proponent of increasing the appropriations for UVM and all the state schools. When I say active, I mean in their faces active. I am an active advocate for more access for lower and middle income students. And I am a hoops fan trying to reconcile the issues for myself.




I might be giving you a break now. I am getting on a plane for the next eleven hours. Don't know if it has internet.
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:59 AM   #337 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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People are making excellent, well thought out points in this blog....for a change.....no need for you do be such a condescending dick...
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:52 AM   #338 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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The purpose of the new arena isn't to compete with the likes of Duke/Syracuse- the purpose is to bring essential facilities into the 21st century.

The place now is bordering on a safety hazard if it's not already- I've literally been at games when an older fan has needed medical attention in the stands from walking up the bleachers-that's how run down & outdated it is.
At last home game this happened. The person in distress had to walk,with arm assistance down the stairs and out the aisle behind team bench - they didn't even have a wheelchair waiting at the bottom of the bleachers. How this place is not in violation of some city fire & safety ordinance is beyond me. The bleachers actually sway and move at times ( ie. when MB23 launched over UA's Wilson) to the point I feel they are near collapsing. As football analyst Chris Carter says, " C'MON MAN "
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:00 AM   #339 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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At last home game this happened. The person in distress had to walk,with arm assistance down the stairs and out the aisle behind team bench - they didn't even have a wheelchair waiting at the bottom of the bleachers. How this place is not in violation of some city fire & safety ordinance is beyond me. The bleachers actually sway and move at times ( ie. when MB23 launched over UA's Wilson) to the point I feel they are near collapsing. As football analyst Chris Carter says, " C'MON MAN "
I do agree at a minimum would it kill them to replace the bleachers with a safer materials? have always said even with arena Patrick will still stand that is in the plans for it so to me while the whole funding of it probably encompass renovations to entire complex do they have to wait for full amount to start a process to at least give a very needed update to it?
Not only they shake, but underneath i would not be surprised to find loose screws and rust parts or stuff welded together after years of use and tear
That and some sections of wood have splits right down middle,
This is what I find most frustrate - it is as though UVM wants both Patrick and Gutterson another death trap in many area that need to be brought to code - to be condemn so they can push justify of a facility. That my opinion but to me it feels that way - a section or two over from where i sit for hockey one of the stair wood split and broke. UVM does not get new piece instead glue it back on and put ducttape on it and a coat of green paint. it insane, and it still not safe or fix.
New bleachers would not be huge cost, couple hundred thousand? Well worth effort since gym continue to be in long term use arena or not and well you pay a lot more than that in a lawsuit if someone does get hurt on them.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:05 AM   #340 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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student section? they go to games? haha the student section is emptiest section in entire gym every game
Patrick cant even sell out anymore and people at game care more about 30 point blowout win to Umbc so they can leave at the 8min timeout
It's true that the student section at Patrick is anaemic, to say the least. But since everyone is always on about the old folks making up a disproportionate percentage of the overall attendance, consider that most of us are probably alumni. So really we're just students who showed up a bit late.

I admit that when I was a student, I never went to even one game. But I don't recall much in the way of publicity then, and don't see much being done by the Athletics Dept. even now (my daughter's a UVM senior, so that's 4 years of recent observation). A nicer facility, combined with better outreach to the students, might help fill up the student section. And while I don't myself leave before game's end, I do sympathize with trying to beat the slow snarl of traffic leaving the parking garage. I would hope that would be addressed with any new arena plans.

I do think that it must be detrimental to athletic recruiting to have Patrick as our flagship gym facility. And when you think of how much money goes into athletics (coaching staff, scholarships, recruiting costs, etc.), looking to build something more appropriate to our only state university isn't perhaps all that misguided after all.

But... money. Not holding my breath (except to blow up inflatable seat cushion).
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:06 AM   #341 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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I do think that it must be detrimental to athletic recruiting to have Patrick as our flagship gym facility. And when you think of how much money goes into athletics (coaching staff, scholarships, recruiting costs, etc.), looking to build something more appropriate to our only state university isn't perhaps all that misguided after all.

But... money. Not holding my breath (except to blow up inflatable seat cushion).
This. The fact of the matter is Patrick Gym and I'm guessing Gutterson are both well past their expiration dates. Renovating them at minimum/creating a new facility is no longer a "Nice to have" but a must. The reason so many old folks attend the games is because they are the only ones that can tolerate sitting on a 2x4 for 2 hours.

IMO someone is 10-15 years too late to question the feasibility of a new facility.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:16 AM   #342 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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This is not the UVM you attended. It now needs twice as many out of state students to fill the school. Attendance by Vermonters stayed the same and enrollment went way up. This is why we are reducing enrollment and trying to quadruple international students. Take a look at the minutes for recent UVM board meetings. Interesting reading.
It really is though. It has not changed- with the only exception that it's now harder for Vermont students to get in. I've been back to Burlington and back on campus for alumni events. I've hired recent UVM grads, my friends have hired recent UVM grads. If anything, these kids are coming from even wealthier families today. There were hardly many Vermont students when I was there. There's a myth and a lot of confusion from people in Vermont about who UVM is actually for. It was certainly not for people like me when I was there.

It's extremely smart of the school to market to international students- there were a few when I was at UVM but there needs to be more- the world is only going to continue to become more global, and the more college students work and collaborate with students from all over the world it will only help them as they join the work force. BU is very successful at attracting International students, although Burlington is no Boston UVM could try and do the same.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:19 AM   #343 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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At last home game this happened. The person in distress had to walk,with arm assistance down the stairs and out the aisle behind team bench - they didn't even have a wheelchair waiting at the bottom of the bleachers. How this place is not in violation of some city fire & safety ordinance is beyond me. The bleachers actually sway and move at times ( ie. when MB23 launched over UA's Wilson) to the point I feel they are near collapsing. As football analyst Chris Carter says, " C'MON MAN "
Not surprised.

It's really astonishing that people could still question the feasibility of fixing this, but alas I know very well the mentality of the residents of the state of Vermont.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:31 AM   #344 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

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This. The fact of the matter is Patrick Gym and I'm guessing Gutterson are both well past their expiration dates. Renovating them at minimum/creating a new facility is no longer a "Nice to have" but a must. The reason so many old folks attend the games is because they are the only ones that can tolerate sitting on a 2x4 for 2 hours.

IMO someone is 10-15 years too late to question the feasibility of a new facility.
you aren't wrong and most people questioning feasibility tie it to whether fund secure that two different things. would say everyone here want new facility know it needed but do people who have money to make happen believe that same need?
And seem people missing point here. read arena plan. Patrick Gym will continue to exist as structure where basketball majority be played. Some of you only think the one dimension of basketball the arena is not for basketball. The arena is for hockey with sometimes basketball. UVM basketball will be played in Patrick Gym for foresseables future even with arena.
Therefores, when it comes to us talking of uncomfortable and unsafe bleachers in Patrick - this is something that CAN be immediate addressed because it will continue to be facility in use even with arena. Question become why does UVM not address it? It clearly stated in plan Patrick will continue use. Do they plan a complete renovation of gym with new arena plans? These are things I wonder because if that case it would be nice to understand what that is to look like. But also if it is simply as plans show build behind Patrick and Gutterson and leave Patrick largely same then what is it they waiting for in terms of much needed updates?
Is this not clear? I think it is very.
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Old 12-16-2015, 12:22 PM   #345 (permalink)
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Re: UVM New Arena Thread

also UVM hoops Cat while you regale these rich uvm alums you hire with tales of back in your day it was a better school than Oxford please tell them to make sure their rich parents are donating to the arena fund
Do your part!
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