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Old 06-01-2015, 10:35 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

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Originally Posted by thebizkit69u View Post
Yeah, and the confidence that Thibs had in him when he was playing 26mpg and 38 mpg when he could not shoot in the 2 years prior to this year, had NOTHING to do with his development.

You know who else avoided Thibs in the summer? Rose and Noah. Both have given big time credit to Thibs for their development.

Offensively they played as expected, middle of the pack.

Uhh, given that Noah is one of the ones who just ran Thibs out of town, I wouldn't exactly cite him.

So Thibs made Jimmy a better shooter now? Mmmkay.

Don't get me wrong, Thibs's key guys may well produce fantastically for a period of time under Thibs because of the heavy minute load. That is, until they are ground into dust. If you don't see Jo ("I'm 7 feet tall and cover more court according to SVU cameras than any other player in basketball over the course of a game") Noah as a potential example of this, I can't help you.
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Old 06-01-2015, 12:41 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

[quote=jnrjr79;13325066]

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Uhh, given that Noah is one of the ones who just ran Thibs out of town, I wouldn't exactly cite him.
There is no evidence to suggest that it was Noah. Its all speculative and even if he did run out Thibs this year, does that all of a sudden discredit the work Thibs did with Noah over the course of his career?

Quote:
So Thibs made Jimmy a better shooter now? Mmmkay.
Made him a better player.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, Thibs's key guys may well produce fantastically for a period of time under Thibs because of the heavy minute load. That is, until they are ground into dust. If you don't see Jo ("I'm 7 feet tall and cover more court according to SVU cameras than any other player in basketball over the course of a game") Noah as a potential example of this, I can't help you.
You know how many teams in the NBA took the whole minutes restriction route this year? A lot (Bulls being one of them!), and yet injuries still plagued the league.

You know who else was 7 feet and played damn near 39 minutes a game 5 years in a row? Patrick Ewing. Oh he also played 35 mpg at age 35!

Shaq played 40 mpg 2 years in a row.

You know who used to play less than 25 mpg? Gregg Oden.

The minutes excuse is something obviously that has merit but lets not act like thats the lone freaking reason Noah sucked, and yet completely ignore that's why Butler is going to get paid big.
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Old 06-01-2015, 01:11 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

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There is no evidence to suggest that it was Noah. Its all speculative and even if he did run out Thibs this year, does that all of a sudden discredit the work Thibs did with Noah over the course of his career?
What work is that?

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Made him a better player.
Jimmy's enormous growth happened in the offseason he decided to get out of dodge, as opposed to the seasons where he stayed. What support can you offer that Thibs made Jimmy better, aside from giving him minutes on the court?



Quote:

You know who else was 7 feet and played damn near 39 minutes a game 5 years in a row? Patrick Ewing. Oh he also played 35 mpg at age 35!
You're ignoring that Noah (1) covered more court than anyone in the NBA, something that assuredly would not apply to Ewing, and (2) has struggled with lower body injuries throughout his career, including a seemingly major surgery last offseason, and Thibs had to have a limit forced on him! And he routinely violated it until the front office reinforced it! I mean, Jesus.

Quote:
You know who used to play less than 25 mpg? Gregg Oden.
So more minutes would have healed Greg Oden?

Quote:

The minutes excuse is something obviously that has merit but lets not act like thats the lone freaking reason Noah sucked, and yet completely ignore that's why Butler is going to get paid big.

Yes, big minutes are going to get Butler paid. But also, the guy wants to be the hell away from Thibs and reportedly told the FO he would not be seen at the Advocate Center this summer if Thibs were around. Also, Butler is a young guy. Preserving him is important! Do you really want to see him turn into another Luol Deng, used up and spit out before his time?
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Old 06-01-2015, 01:48 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

"pussies" - Wilt Chamberlain on today's players and their minutes concerns
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Old 06-02-2015, 05:42 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

its funny how people openly question the 2nd best coach the bulls ever had based on how much he played his top players .

a quick look at phil Jackson's 1st 5 years as head reveals he actually played his top guys a little more than thibs did.

so I guess that mean phil really isn't so good now?

1st year thibs deng 39.1 rose 37.4 noah 32.4
1st year pj Jordan 39.0 pippen 38.4 grant 34.4

2nd year thibs deng 39.4 rose 35.3 noah 30.4
2nd year pj Jordan 37.0 pippen 36.8 grant 33.9

3rd year thibs deng 38.7 noah 36.8 boozer 32.2
3rd year pj jordan38.8 pippen 38.6 grant 35.3

4th year thibs butler 38.7 deng 37.4 noah 35.3
4th tear pj Jordan 39.3 pippen38.6 grant 35.6

5th year thibs butler 38.7 gasol 34.4 noah 30.6
5th year pj pippen 38.3 grant 36.7 bj 33.8

in 3 of the 5 seasons thibs played his leading minutes guy more than phil did for an average of 38.92 to 38.48
in all 5 seasons pj played his 2nd and 3rd leading minutes guys more than thibs did 37.83 to 36.26 and 34.6 to 32.18

I don't remember a lot of people complaining about pippen, Jordan and grant playing too much , certainly not reason to fire the man , and Krause certainly wanted for purdue and Stacey king after he used an 11th and 6th pick to draft them, he drafted and traded for players like jef sanders , dennis hopson and bob hanson and craig hodges ...and yet pippen and Jordan minutes really didn't change much

I don't remember people complaining that he was wearing them down and shortening their careers seeing as grant and pippen played for 17 years apiece and Jordan played for 15.

it seems like a lot of spinning that people are buying up , that doesn't at all stand up to any real kind of scrutiny that garpax are justified in making such a big stink about it ....its not like luol deng was never knocked for being injury prone before thibs or that explosive players like rose never get knee injuries or hustle players like noah don't wear down and suddenly become less effective (ben Wallace anyone)

and this is from someone who believed thibs was playing his players too much, in truth I believed it created a smokescreen of sorts to allow people to believe the bulls were better than they actually were , if they played lesser players more they simply would not have been as good , I would take jimmy butler in his 40th minute of play in a game over cj Watson or or a marquis teague at any point in their lives and i'm betting everyone reading would agree,

if thibs handled their minutes like popovich does the spurs they aren't winning 60 games in a season maybe they win 45 , on a good year maybe 50 with everyone healthy the bulls don't have the kind of talent where they can plug people in and develop them and still win 60+ games, and then of course there would be complaints about not trying to win and questionable substitution patterns so you cant win for losing especially with garpax and their apparent constant undermining .
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Old 06-02-2015, 07:44 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

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Originally Posted by Da Grinch View Post
its funny how people openly question the 2nd best coach the bulls ever had based on how much he played his top players .

a quick look at phil Jackson's 1st 5 years as head reveals he actually played his top guys a little more than thibs did.

so I guess that mean phil really isn't so good now?

1st year thibs deng 39.1 rose 37.4 noah 32.4
1st year pj Jordan 39.0 pippen 38.4 grant 34.4

2nd year thibs deng 39.4 rose 35.3 noah 30.4
2nd year pj Jordan 37.0 pippen 36.8 grant 33.9

3rd year thibs deng 38.7 noah 36.8 boozer 32.2
3rd year pj jordan38.8 pippen 38.6 grant 35.3

4th year thibs butler 38.7 deng 37.4 noah 35.3
4th tear pj Jordan 39.3 pippen38.6 grant 35.6

5th year thibs butler 38.7 gasol 34.4 noah 30.6
5th year pj pippen 38.3 grant 36.7 bj 33.8

in 3 of the 5 seasons thibs played his leading minutes guy more than phil did for an average of 38.92 to 38.48
in all 5 seasons pj played his 2nd and 3rd leading minutes guys more than thibs did 37.83 to 36.26 and 34.6 to 32.18

I don't remember a lot of people complaining about pippen, Jordan and grant playing too much , certainly not reason to fire the man , and Krause certainly wanted for purdue and Stacey king after he used an 11th and 6th pick to draft them, he drafted and traded for players like jef sanders , dennis hopson and bob hanson and craig hodges ...and yet pippen and Jordan minutes really didn't change much

I don't remember people complaining that he was wearing them down and shortening their careers seeing as grant and pippen played for 17 years apiece and Jordan played for 15.

it seems like a lot of spinning that people are buying up , that doesn't at all stand up to any real kind of scrutiny that garpax are justified in making such a big stink about it ....its not like luol deng was never knocked for being injury prone before thibs or that explosive players like rose never get knee injuries or hustle players like noah don't wear down and suddenly become less effective (ben Wallace anyone)

and this is from someone who believed thibs was playing his players too much, in truth I believed it created a smokescreen of sorts to allow people to believe the bulls were better than they actually were , if they played lesser players more they simply would not have been as good , I would take jimmy butler in his 40th minute of play in a game over cj Watson or or a marquis teague at any point in their lives and i'm betting everyone reading would agree,

if thibs handled their minutes like popovich does the spurs they aren't winning 60 games in a season maybe they win 45 , on a good year maybe 50 with everyone healthy the bulls don't have the kind of talent where they can plug people in and develop them and still win 60+ games, and then of course there would be complaints about not trying to win and questionable substitution patterns so you cant win for losing especially with garpax and their apparent constant undermining .

I think it's just more that times and bodies are changing. During Phil's time, we didn't have access to the sports medicine we do now. New information informs new decision-making.

Hockey goalies didn't use to wear face masks. Should we go back to that?

My total speculation on why the injury situation seems different these days is this. What we're seeing now is that players are bigger and stronger than ever. The ability of players to pack on muscle and become more physically imposing, faster, and more explosive has never been like this. However, a person's ligaments and cartilage don't get stronger. There is no commensurate improvement in that department as muscle mass increases. So, these bigger, stronger players are imparting greater and greater forces on their own bodies, but the same old ACLs and the like must bear this strain. So, while everyone is stronger, they are also more injury-prone. Given that sports science indicates injuries are more likely to occur when players are fatigued, and given that players are more prone to hurting themselves, it could be argued that fatigue must be fought against to a greater degree than in the past.

Anyway, I am far from a doctor, but this is my own pet theory as to why times are changing. A lot of people also look at specialization (playing the same sport continuously growing up rather than multiple sports) leading to having a less all-around rugged body. I'm open to that thought as well, though it seems perhaps a more fitting explanation for baseball arm injuries than basketball leg injuries.
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Old 06-02-2015, 08:37 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

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I think it's just more that times and bodies are changing. During Phil's time, we didn't have access to the sports medicine we do now. New information informs new decision-making.

Hockey goalies didn't use to wear face masks. Should we go back to that?

My total speculation on why the injury situation seems different these days is this. What we're seeing now is that players are bigger and stronger than ever. The ability of players to pack on muscle and become more physically imposing, faster, and more explosive has never been like this. However, a person's ligaments and cartilage don't get stronger. There is no commensurate improvement in that department as muscle mass increases. So, these bigger, stronger players are imparting greater and greater forces on their own bodies, but the same old ACLs and the like must bear this strain. So, while everyone is stronger, they are also more injury-prone. Given that sports science indicates injuries are more likely to occur when players are fatigued, and given that players are more prone to hurting themselves, it could be argued that fatigue must be fought against to a greater degree than in the past.

Anyway, I am far from a doctor, but this is my own pet theory as to why times are changing. A lot of people also look at specialization (playing the same sport continuously growing up rather than multiple sports) leading to having a less all-around rugged body. I'm open to that thought as well, though it seems perhaps a more fitting explanation for baseball arm injuries than basketball leg injuries.
if I bought your scenario I would find it hard to believe that deng rose and noah are collectively stronger and more athletic than Jordan pippen and grant thus there should more care in regards to them sports medicine training methods or not, in fact not only did they play more minutes they played in more games , they missed a total 41 out of 1148 and a combined 14 seasons of play averaging out to 79 out of 82 games played possible games in Jackson's first 5 years while making winning 3 titles and in the other 2 years making the 2nd round and the conf. finals and I believe pippen missed 1 playoff game because his father died while I don't believe grant and Jordan didn't missed any.

maybe paxson is drafting more fragile players, because on top of it all the nba was a lot more physical than it is now...a lesson paxson should well know since he was on those 1st 5 seasons with Jackson grant pippen and Jordan(the 1st 4 anyway)
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:12 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

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if I bought your scenario I would find it hard to believe that deng rose and noah are collectively stronger and more athletic than Jordan pippen and grant thus there should more care in regards to them sports medicine training methods or not, in fact not only did they play more minutes they played in more games , they missed a total 41 out of 1148 and a combined 14 seasons of play averaging out to 79 out of 82 games played possible games in Jackson's first 5 years while making winning 3 titles and in the other 2 years making the 2nd round and the conf. finals and I believe pippen missed 1 playoff game because his father died while I don't believe grant and Jordan didn't missed any.

maybe paxson is drafting more fragile players, because on top of it all the nba was a lot more physical than it is now...a lesson paxson should well know since he was on those 1st 5 seasons with Jackson grant pippen and Jordan(the 1st 4 anyway)

If you bought my scenario, you are not making the correct comparisons.

Rose's equivalent isn't Jordan. It's Paxson. You don't think Rose is bigger and stronger?

The argument is also pretty silly just due to sample size. 3 players then were healthier than 3 players now, so...proof?

Would you not agree that players in the NBA generally are getting hurt at a faster clip than they were then?

Heck, here's Michael Jordan's trainer criticizing overuse injuries caused by too much youth playing:

http://www.si.com/edge/2014/12/18/wh...ere-arent-more

Here's something indicating that among players that play 20 or more minutes per game, the number of players that missed more than 20 games between 1980 and today has increased 100% (even though the number of teams has only expanded 25%).

http://www.quora.com/Are-there-more-...e-NBA-nowadays



Your point that the NBA "was a lot more physical then than it is now" actually works against your argument. If the NBA was more physical in the past, then shouldn't the number of injuries have been greater? (Frankly, I'm not sure "physical" play matters, because most of the injuries we are talking about are non-contact/overuse injuries, like Jo's plantar fasciitis or Derrick's ACL tear. Those aren't about "physical" play.)

Also, the notion that Paxson simply drafts "fragile" players as though this was something that should have been scouted out is laughable. This is a truly silly, frivolous thing to say.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:20 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

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Jimmy's enormous growth happened in the offseason he decided to get out of dodge, as opposed to the seasons where he stayed. What support can you offer that Thibs made Jimmy better, aside from giving him minutes on the court?
Obviously you refuse to give Thibs any credit on his ability to develop players. So there really is no point in even debating with you any further on the matter.

Quote:
You're ignoring that Noah (1) covered more court than anyone in the NBA, something that assuredly would not apply to Ewing, and (2) has struggled with lower body injuries throughout his career, including a seemingly major surgery last offseason, and Thibs had to have a limit forced on him! And he routinely violated it until the front office reinforced it! I mean, Jesus.
Covering more court = injuries now?

Funny on how the two years that Thibs pushed him past the brink was his best years as a basketball PERIOD. The whole minutes excuse is sooo overused and is being used as a big excuse as to why these guys can't stay healthy. Who's to say that Noah's injuries weren't caused by his refusal to change shoes for 2 seasons when people where bringing up the idea that his french shoes could be hurting his feet?

McDermott played very few minutes and he could not stay healthy.
Taj Gibson wasn't a big minutes guy and he would get injured consistently.
Pau Gasol played big minutes and yet he was healthy for a large part of the season.
Jimmy played huge minutes and was only hurt on a couple of freak plays.
Rose had the TIGHTEST minutes restriction of any player in the NBA and was still injured.

INJURIES HAPPEN.


Quote:
So more minutes would have healed Greg Oden?
Just proves that the whole minute excuse is overblown.



Quote:
Yes, big minutes are going to get Butler paid. But also, the guy wants to be the hell away from Thibs and reportedly told the FO he would not be seen at the Advocate Center this summer if Thibs were around. Also, Butler is a young guy. Preserving him is important! Do you really want to see him turn into another Luol Deng, used up and spit out before his time?
As much as people wan't to portray Jimmy as a nice aww shucks cowboy, the dude is probably the most selfish player on the team. So if he was the guy who said he would not be at the advocate center if Thibs was there, was probably not going to be there anyways regardless of who is there.

Rose trains in California, Jordan stayed away from the Berto Center and worked out with his own guys on the west side. Some guys went back to their home states and worked out there on their own too. People act like training outside of their team controlled buildings is a new thing.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:44 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

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If you bought my scenario, you are not making the correct comparisons.

Rose's equivalent isn't Jordan. It's Paxson. You don't think Rose is bigger and stronger?

The argument is also pretty silly just due to sample size. 3 players then were healthier than 3 players now, so...proof?

Would you not agree that players in the NBA generally are getting hurt at a faster clip than they were then?

Heck, here's Michael Jordan's trainer criticizing overuse injuries caused by too much youth playing:

http://www.si.com/edge/2014/12/18/wh...ere-arent-more

Here's something indicating that among players that play 20 or more minutes per game, the number of players that missed more than 20 games between 1980 and today has increased 100% (even though the number of teams has only expanded 25%).

http://www.quora.com/Are-there-more-...e-NBA-nowadays



Your point that the NBA "was a lot more physical then than it is now" actually works against your argument. If the NBA was more physical in the past, then shouldn't the number of injuries have been greater? (Frankly, I'm not sure "physical" play matters, because most of the injuries we are talking about are non-contact/overuse injuries, like Jo's plantar fasciitis or Derrick's ACL tear. Those aren't about "physical" play.)

Also, the notion that Paxson simply drafts "fragile" players as though this was something that should have been scouted out is laughable. This is a truly silly, frivolous thing to say.

I think you have lost yourself in this .

i'm talking about the minutes thibs doled out to his players as not really being all that serious by comparing it to Jackson.

you retort today's players are more athletic and explosive than players than they were 25 years ago....doesn't matter because PJ's high minute players were more athletic than thibs high minute guys

heck LeBron who is a pretty athletic guy and he plays today averages 39.3 minutes a game over his 12 year career 42.4 in the playoffs .

anyone ever fire his coach for playing him too much?

anyone complaining his career is being shortened ?

you gonna rack your brain and try to argue that somehow he isn't a good enough example?

its a stupid reason to get into a serious beef with your coach and now they have done it with 2 head coaches in a row .

its all a distraction from people asking the right questions about their lack of results in the front office

at what point do you say enough is enough ?
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:58 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

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Obviously you refuse to give Thibs any credit on his ability to develop players. So there really is no point in even debating with you any further on the matter.
I don't give him no credit. But you seem to act as though Thibs just magically conjured this improvement. The majority of the credit should go the players themselves for their hard work. I am not a big believer that, particularly for Jimmy - whose major improvement occurred during the offseason when he made a point to escape Thibs - that the lion's share of the credit goes to anyone other than Jimmy himself.

Quote:

Covering more court = injuries now?
Can you credibly argue otherwise, particularly for a big, and particularly for a big with repetitive stress injuries like Noah has struggled with? I am not saying anything controversial.

Quote:

Funny on how the two years that Thibs pushed him past the brink was his best years as a basketball PERIOD. The whole minutes excuse is sooo overused and is being used as a big excuse as to why these guys can't stay healthy. Who's to say that Noah's injuries weren't caused by his refusal to change shoes for 2 seasons when people where bringing up the idea that his french shoes could be hurting his feet?
I think I've been pretty clear that the guys Thibs gives huge minutes are going to produce really well during that period of time. The question is at what cost.

I agree that we don't know that Thibs overusing Noah caused his injuries. It's just one factor to look at. The team did that in conjunction with sports medicine personnel and came up with a plan to address that particular factor. Thibs hated the plan and violated it routinely.

Again, this is not controversial.

Quote:

McDermott played very few minutes and he could not stay healthy.
He had a single acute injury.

Quote:
Taj Gibson wasn't a big minutes guy and he would get injured consistently.
True. He twisted his ankles a lot. Hardly a repetitive stress injury.

Quote:
Pau Gasol played big minutes and yet he was healthy for a large part of the season.
Agreed.

Quote:
Jimmy played huge minutes and was only hurt on a couple of freak plays.
Funny. When Taj suffers ankle sprains or McDermott needs a knee scope, you cite those as evidence to favor your argument. But when Jimmy has similar injuries, those are "freak plays."

Quote:
Rose had the TIGHTEST minutes restriction of any player in the NBA and was still injured.
I have no idea whether 32 minutes was the tightest restriction in the NBA, but yes, he was injured yet again. More minutes would have prevented this, then?

[quote]

INJURIES HAPPEN.


They sure do. You can't stop them. But the current sports medicine consensus seems to think that you can reduce their frequency by adhering to certain practices. Again, I'm not sure why you're bristling at this, other than you hate GarPax and just want to believe that anything they would implement must be wrongheaded.

Quote:
Just proves that the whole minute excuse is overblown.
I agree that the minutes thing is only one factor in the decision to dismiss Thibs and, in and of itself, may not have been a fireable offense. Of course, we know there was plenty more.

Quote:
As much as people wan't to portray Jimmy as a nice aww shucks cowboy, the dude is probably the most selfish player on the team. So if he was the guy who said he would not be at the advocate center if Thibs was there, was probably not going to be there anyways regardless of who is there.
He was there in years past, was he not? I'm not sure why selfishness in playing style would have anything to do with where you train, either.

Quote:
Rose trains in California, Jordan stayed away from the Berto Center and worked out with his own guys on the west side. Some guys went back to their home states and worked out there on their own too. People act like training outside of their team controlled buildings is a new thing.

It's been reported that players specifically threatened to avoid the Advocate Center this summer if Thibs were around. If you don't want to believe that, that's fine. But don't act like this isn't Thibs-related. You're just not being honest.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:03 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I think you have lost yourself in this .

i'm talking about the minutes thibs doled out to his players as not really being all that serious by comparing it to Jackson.

you retort today's players are more athletic and explosive than players than they were 25 years ago....doesn't matter because PJ's high minute players were more athletic than thibs high minute guys
This makes no sense. And geez, if you can't see that this sample size renders the whole thing ridiculous, I don't know what to tell you.

Players are bigger and stronger now. Their ligaments are not. They get injured more frequently. Maybe one causes the other and maybe it doesn't, but burying your head in the sand isn't an option.

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heck LeBron who is a pretty athletic guy and he plays today averages 39.3 minutes a game over his 12 year career 42.4 in the playoffs .

anyone ever fire his coach for playing him too much?
So?

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anyone complaining his career is being shortened ?

you gonna rack your brain and try to argue that somehow he isn't a good enough example?
LeBron is durable, therefore all NBA players are durable. I get it.

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its a stupid reason to get into a serious beef with your coach and now they have done it with 2 head coaches in a row .
No, it's management's job to protect the players if necessary. What's "stupid" is a coach not being able to live with a minutes restriction to protect players. In any other normal job, is it ok to simply flaunt these sorts of directives from your bosses?

To me, this falls into one of those areas where even if Thibs disagrees or isn't convinced by the data, he has to fall in line. To simply be insubordinate about it, and publicly rail against it, is not professional.

Hopefully in his next gig he'll find a front office that doesn't believe in such limits, and then he'll be fine.

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its all a distraction from people asking the right questions about their lack of results in the front office

at what point do you say enough is enough ?
It's not a distraction. People should be perfectly capable both of thinking about the minutes issue and also thinking about whether the FO has done a good job. It doesn't take that much brain power to have thoughts on both issues.
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Old 06-02-2015, 03:39 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

I'm still wondering how these modern athletes who have every advantage in terms of diet and conditioning, medical advances, better equipment, advanced sports science and training etc etc etc are having a hard time playing minutes that the guys from 60s shrugged off as normal when the game was 30% faster back then (meaning lots more trips up and down the court), they were playing in Chucks (which are basically canvas with cardboard soles), on atrocious surfaces (see Boston Garden), under horrible conditions etc - I guess I'm confused
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:13 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

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Originally Posted by jnrjr79 View Post
I don't give him no credit. But you seem to act as though Thibs just magically conjured this improvement. The majority of the credit should go the players themselves for their hard work. I am not a big believer that, particularly for Jimmy - whose major improvement occurred during the offseason when he made a point to escape Thibs - that the lion's share of the credit goes to anyone other than Jimmy himself.
You are discounting the times Rose and others praised Thibs for his work with them and discounting the effect that big time minutes Thibs gave to Jimmy as a part of development. So why even debate it any further. You act like Jimmy came into this league as one of the better defenders in the NBA! Don't act like Thibs had NOTHING to do with that.

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Can you credibly argue otherwise, particularly for a big, and particularly for a big with repetitive stress injuries like Noah has struggled with? I am not saying anything controversial.
You use this as a veiled excuse as to why Noah's minutes caused his injuries. When there really is no concrete evidence AT ALL that his minutes where the damn reason Noah gets hurt all the damn time. Lebron James probably does 10 times more than what Noah does on a daily basis and is about 6'9 250 and hes not limping around every damn season.

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I think I've been pretty clear that the guys Thibs gives huge minutes are going to produce really well during that period of time. The question is at what cost.

I agree that we don't know that Thibs overusing Noah caused his injuries. It's just one factor to look at. The team did that in conjunction with sports medicine personnel and came up with a plan to address that particular factor. Thibs hated the plan and violated it routinely.
The problem here is that the Bulls fully sold themselves on the idea that the minutes was the problem and they threw Thibs under the Bus. I'm not saying Thibs isn't to blame either, Thibs sure as hell could have just said "Ok, I will play these guys less." but he did not and his lack of peoples skills clearly cost him his job.

Some players are just injury prone. No minutes restriction will ever eliminate injuries, nor limit the number of freak injuries. An ACL can go out at any minute in a game, a dude could play 10 minutes or 40 it would not really matter.


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Funny. When Taj suffers ankle sprains or McDermott needs a knee scope, you cite those as evidence to favor your argument. But when Jimmy has similar injuries, those are "freak plays."
Huh? They both make my argument that the whole minutes excuse is not based on any actual evidence that it causes injuries! You wan't to make the argument that it affects their play on the court? Well that's a different story, one that again has no evidence that suggests that its a valid argument.

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I have no idea whether 32 minutes was the tightest restriction in the NBA, but yes, he was injured yet again. More minutes would have prevented this, then?
You act like I'm asking for these guys to play more minutes! I'm just pointing out that if Rose's minutes limit was 15 there is no guarantee that he would not have re injured himself either.


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They sure do. You can't stop them. But the current sports medicine consensus seems to think that you can reduce their frequency by adhering to certain practices. Again, I'm not sure why you're bristling at this, other than you hate GarPax and just want to believe that anything they would implement must be wrongheaded.
I'm not bristling at what medical professionals say about players, but I also understand that it isn't necessarily NBA minutes that are affecting these guys alone. You got these guys playing year long at a very young age with travel teams, AAU, HS, College etc. You can't monitor those minutes, you sure as hell can't predict that limiting their activity in the NBA keeps them from being injured either.

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I agree that the minutes thing is only one factor in the decision to dismiss Thibs and, in and of itself, may not have been a fireable offense. Of course, we know there was plenty more.
Absolutely. I'm not saying Thibs did not deserve to be fired, heck its best for both of them to part ways. My main concern and point of the thread was that the Bulls front office should be held EQUALLY responsible if not MORE for the failures of this franchise. Not many people in sport can have this much front office drama and still keep their jobs.

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He was there in years past, was he not? I'm not sure why selfishness in playing style would have anything to do with where you train, either.
Even if Thibs constant presence at the advocate center irked some Bulls, its far from a fire-able offense and really should not have been leaked by the Bulls front office (A front office by the way, that was talking about keeping what goes on with the team insulated. Yet they leak this bit out? Classless).

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It's been reported that players specifically threatened to avoid the Advocate Center this summer if Thibs were around. If you don't want to believe that, that's fine. But don't act like this isn't Thibs-related. You're just not being honest.
I believe it and I could care less. Players avoid team facilities all the time for various reasons. Rose has avoided them for how many years? You act like this is some grand revelation!

Its time to move on. I think we both agree that it was time for both parties to part way. I think we both agree that Thibs could have done stuff differently. Nobody is innocent in this whole thing. I just wish the Bulls front office had more class, would have handled it better and would be held accountable for what is going wrong with this team.
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Old 06-03-2015, 04:26 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: The Bulls front office are finally being exposed as the clowns they are.

GarPax out!
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