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Old 11-13-2015, 09:25 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Going for Cousins 2-3 years ago is not the same as going for Cousins now. Even though he can have a bad attitude, he actually has matured and improved some major flaws in his game from earlier in his career. Cousins' alleged bad attitude right now has ALOT to do with George Karl basically alienating him the moment he stepped foot in the door, plus the fact they started 1-7 (albeit with the toughest schedule in the league, arguably).

Is it likely the Bulls get him? No. Is it likely the Kings even want to field offers? Probably not. Would I still give up a lot for him? Yes. BTW, I wouldn't necessarily stop at just Mirotic and McDermott...

I just don't see a scenario in which the bulls get Cousins. You can add Noah to that deal as an expiring piece, but the kings are in need of young players and high draft picks in return. What's the point of having cap space if nobody wants to play for you, or if you are so far away from competing.

Also, I don't think Cousins fits well with a Bulls team without 2 good perimeter shooters. If you trade way your 2 best 3 point shooters and you are stuck with a PG who doesn't attack the basket and can't shoot a 3, I see opposing teams easily adjusting to Cousins.

The truth is, the bulls are just in a weird situation right now. They are talented enough to make a conference title run, but also capable of getting wiped out in the first round.
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:17 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

Bulls oddly enough are up to #6 in defensive efficiency after a solid defensive game against Charlotte. http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/tea...t/defensiveEff

Honestly it would've been even better but Batum was hitting 3's with his eyes closed all game to keep them in it. And better yet if Charlotte's entire team wasn't doing the same in our first meeting en route to 130 points.

They are also top 5-7 I think in defensive FG%, defensive 3-pt %, and total rebounding. So they are defending both the interior and perimeter pretty well overall. From the eye test I wouldn't have guessed it, but then again, if you look around the league the NBA is scoring ALOT of points so that is just the trend these days. Relative to the rest of the league we are defending well. Maybe this turns out to be the team's identify afterall, not the top 5-7 offense we all thought.

It's encouraging to see our defense remaining intact for the most part. Alot has to do with Noah looking alot better physically compared to last year, but also alot of credit to the coaching staff for finding schemes that are working. Jim Boylen was a terrific hire as lead assistant, I suspect he has alot to do with the defense performing how they are.

Good to be 6-3 in spite of some really noticeable flaws in any case. It means we have room for improvement yet are still sneaking by with enough wins to be upper half of EC playoff contention.
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:39 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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This isn't a reaction to last nights blowout loss, its just an accumulation of things that I have noticed since the end of last season. Most of it comes down to the fact that Derrick Rose has basically turned into Deron Williams and has shown 0 signs of ever returning to his MVP form... Or even close to it. That alone seals the Bulls fate when it comes to the playoffs. They will not even come close to winning a title, they might not even come close to beating a healthy Cavs either.

Here are a few observations.

1. The Bulls as a team got worse the minute Tom Thibodeau left the team. Not saying that a change wasn't needed for a better environment, its just a fact.

2. Hoiberg does not have a roster that maximizes his style of coaching. Hoiberg needs athletic shooters and slashers. The Bulls just don't have a young team that fits what Hoiberg wants to do perfectly.

3. There is 0 leadership on the court. Butler talks a big game about being a leader, but has shown 0 vocal leadership on the court. Noah was your vocal leader on the court and now that hes on the bench (a good move IMO) the Bulls lack on court leadership.

4. Defensively they are just a mess.

5. Offensively they are good, but they aren't dynamic and while they will score more than last year, they are still not capable of matching the elite offensive teams in the NBA.
I realize that the discussion has migrated some, but I thought I'd take the OP and see how the last couple weeks have treated it.

1) The statement that "it's a fact" the Bulls are worse because Thibodeau's gone was and is an opinion, not a fact. I disagree with the opinion. The Bulls are about the same as last season and oddly enough, statistically better on defense and worse on offense...go figure.

2) Spot on. The Bulls are not a very athletic team and that doesn't fit the up-tempo "Hoiball" offense. Fred's just gonna have to show some flexibility and creativity.

3) Leadership? This is mostly a veteran team. Not sure they need much in the way of overt leadership. I see this as a media-friendly narrative rather than a substantive issue.

4) As mentioned, defensively, the Bulls are anything but a mess. They're doing just fine on that end.

5) Agree that the Bulls have shown no ability so far to hang with the top-scoring teams. Heck, they're having a tough time keeping up with the average-scoring teams.

Plainly, this season has not gone according to script, but it's gone OK. If you say that you've been unimpressed, I can't blame you. Then again, other than GSW, Cleveland and San Antonio, which team(s) have taken your breath away?
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Old 11-17-2015, 01:06 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

I am seeing some really encouraging signs. As I suspected from the get-go, this team's performance just rides a ton with Rose. Rose played a solid game against Indiana last night; he pushed the pace, made good passes, and hit some jumpshots. It had an amazingly positive effect on the whole team. The rest of the team just continued doing what they are doing; Rose's performance seems to swing the pendulum in whatever direction he is playing, for better or worse.

I'm not so sure we have a poor fitting roster with Hoiball. More like we have a few poor fitting pieces and a few really nice fitting pieces. A trade or two can make all the difference. I'm still holding my breath over a backup PG upgrade...really hope it comes eventually. Maybe steal Jrue Holiday from New Orleans who is struggling, something like that.

The whole season so far has been a mixed bag, but they do seem to building an identity and we are seeing progress along with some really positive glimpses on occasion. We'd be looking damn impressive if Rose & Mirotic hadn't started the season in such a shooting slump.
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Old 11-17-2015, 07:02 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

I'm not quite sure what the identity is at this point.

Hoiball was supposed to juice the offense but we've fallen from 11th (pretty good last year under Thibs) to 26th! The whole "improve the offense" thing isn't there to this point.

Mirotic's PER has fallen from 17.9 last season to 12.6. The narrative by many last season was that Thibs was holding Mirotic back. That seems very silly to this point, given his poor play and that he was made a starter. Of course its only been 10 games and he's a 2nd year NBA player, but still.

McDermott on the other had is turning into at least a serviceable NBA player. Great shooter. Bad at rebounding, creating for others and defense. At least he's not totally inept anymore.

To this point, the Bulls are a way above average defensive team and a poor offensive one. I'm not sure that is the "Hoiball" many were trumpeting. I do think that Hoiberg gave management pet projects Mirotic and McDermott plenty of playing time and is probably much more "yes sir, thanks sir" than the previous coach.

It was supposedly a disappointment to management last season that the Bulls were ousted by the Cavs in the playoffs. I'm not seeing anything to this point to see how it ends any differently this time around.

There is still plenty of ball left of course. And to many only the playoffs matter and regular season wins don't (even at an all-time great pace) so we'll just have to wait and see.

There are far poorer spots to be 10 games in than 7-3. I've been told many times though that regular season wins don't matter much, so take the record for what its worth.

Last edited by K4E; 11-17-2015 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 11-17-2015, 08:45 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Any of those trades would work for me. Sure, McDermott or Mirotic might blossom into a top 20 player in the league but Cousins is pretty much there now.

The risk is his attitude of course. I'm not sure if Hoiberg (or anyone?) can handle him. That would be a tough guy to hoist on a rookie NBA coach. Who knows though, maybe the Mayor is the man to get through to him.
There's a -8000% chance Doug McDermott blossoms into a top 20 player. I literally just had a computer run the numbers and it exploded out of absolute hate for your post.

Doug McDermott a top 20 player.... are you ****ing kidding me? Even Niko stands no chance but at least he's a nice young prospect who will be a solid NBA player. Doug McDermott? Sweet Jesus Shutlesworth there's no chance of that ever happening.
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Old 11-18-2015, 05:49 AM   #37 (permalink)
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There's a -8000% chance Doug McDermott blossoms into a top 20 player. I literally just had a computer run the numbers and it exploded out of absolute hate for your post.
Ha. I would also say there is a very low chance of that happening.

I think management is off their rocker for thinking he's a guy to build around or with. But, I've been surprised before. I imagine you and I feel pretty much the same about Doug McDermott. I was really surprised about how the narrative and focus last season for many, during a legit title contending season for the Bulls, was about getting him more playing time and creating an environment where Doug McDermott could thrive. Once again, this was during a season where the Bulls had a legit chance to at least make the NBA Finals with a veteran laden group.

Sorry about the computer.
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Old 11-18-2015, 02:11 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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It was supposedly a disappointment to management last season that the Bulls were ousted by the Cavs in the playoffs. I'm not seeing anything to this point to see how it ends any differently this time around.

To be fair, the reason it was a disappointment is that the Cavs had terrible injury issues and were a depleted shell of themselves (albeit still a depleted shell with LeBron James). It was seen as a missed opportunity to capitalize on the Cavs being at less than full strength. I doubt that a fully healthy Cavs roster would have been considered a major disappointment to lose to (though Thibs may still well have been out on his ass at the end of the season regardless, I would think).
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Old 11-19-2015, 04:44 AM   #39 (permalink)
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To be fair, the reason it was a disappointment is that the Cavs had terrible injury issues and were a depleted shell of themselves (albeit still a depleted shell with LeBron James).
That Cavs team was a team capable of defeating the top team in the east last season and the darlings of many, the Atlanta Hawks, in 5 games.

If the Hawks smoked the Cavs or if it was even a close series, I think it would be fair to say that the Cavs were some kind of shell. If the Cavs were a shell, what were the Hawks?
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Old 11-19-2015, 09:39 AM   #40 (permalink)
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That Cavs team was a team capable of defeating the top team in the east last season and the darlings of many, the Atlanta Hawks, in 5 games.

If the Hawks smoked the Cavs or if it was even a close series, I think it would be fair to say that the Cavs were some kind of shell. If the Cavs were a shell, what were the Hawks?
Well, it seems a little curious to me to say that the losses of Love and Kyrie weren't massively significant.

You may not be remembering what was going on with the Hawks in the ECF. They were far from full strength.

First, you had the NYC nightclub incident that resulted in Thabo's broken leg. He was a key reserve for them. Demare Carroll got injured and knocked out of game 1. Kyle Korver got knocked out for the remainder of the playoffs with an injury in game 2. Horford got ejected in game 3.

So, you had 2 guys who missed big stretches, and 2 more important players who were knocked out of games. Maybe Lebron + Dellavadova & co. truly would have been enough to knock out Atlanta, but Atlanta was significantly diminished and we'll never know.
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Old 11-19-2015, 11:34 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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I'm not so sure we have a poor fitting roster with Hoiball. More like we have a few poor fitting pieces and a few really nice fitting pieces. A trade or two can make all the difference.
This is pretty much what I have seen from this bunch as well. They've got so much frontcourt depth it's ridiculous. I think teams with weak frontcourts should be calling the Bulls daily to try and pry one (or more) of these guys away.
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Old 11-19-2015, 02:04 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

Regarding having a team identity -- it might not be the identity we all thought it would be thus far, but you can't deny they've been damn solid overall defensively. We're keeping almost everyone to below 100 points each game. We are among the league's best in defensive FG%, defensive 3-pt %, and total rebounding. #5 in defensive efficiency while being 8-3. That 1 game in Charlotte was atrocious, though I watched that entire game and I assure you, that while our D wasn't great, a big part of it was Charlotte's hot outside shooting. It's pretty amazing our defensive stats are as good as they are in spite of that 130 point game we yielded. Outside of that game, we're been among the league's best defensively. I don't understand how you can deny this team's success is defining itself based on defense. If anything that should be encouraging since Hoiberg came in with more of an offensive reputation.

The offense has only been bad b/c Rose & Mirotic have had such terrible shooting. We've done better this year in terms of pace and reducing turnovers. Mirotic & Rose are clearly the 2 guys struggling to fit into the offense right now; often both looking lost and becoming 1-dimensional. Can only hope over time this will get remedied. In theory, both should be good fits for Hoiberg. Especially Mirotic with his ability to shoot, dribble, drive, and run the floor. From what I see, Mirotic is getting pigeon holed into being a standalone spot-up PF, which doesn't fully maximize his talents. He also isn't a pure enough shooter to do only catch and shoot, or spot up shooting. He needs to get the ball on the move, make some drives, etc. Last year his best work was always done more with his feet, more than his jumpshot. If Hoiberg doesn't try to fix this, that's a strike on Hoiberg. Hoiberg's impressed me thus far with his ability to make good adjustments, so we'll see if he can adjust Mirotic's fit so he's more comfortable out there. I already saw the corner being turned with Rose until he hurt his ankle the other night.
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Old 11-20-2015, 03:40 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Maybe Lebron + Dellavadova & co. truly would have been enough to knock out Atlanta, but Atlanta was significantly diminished and we'll never know.
Yes, the Cavs were not operating at full strength by any stretch. They still destroyed a slightly weakened Hawks team and took the Warriors to 6. They were a very strong team, based on the results. The Bulls gave the Cavs a tougher time than the Hawks.

Its also fair to say (IMO) that the Bulls were fairly diminished by the season long public smear campaign management decided to implement against the head coach during the very rare season where the Bulls actually had a chance to make the NBA Finals.

Sure, Thibs was being Thibs, but management decided to give Thibs an extension, so they knew what they were getting (or should of, if competent).

This all feels like beating a dead horse at this point and I can't really muster up the energy to care much about it anymore so that's about all I have to say.

As for the current team, its going to take a while for Fred to figure out what kind of NBA coach he's going to be. The "youth movement" for this team looks less than promising based on early results. Of course, players can improve over time.

If the Bulls are going to continue to be a strong defensive team and a weak offensive one and win regular season games then that's better than losing regular season games, but the getting to the NBA Finals to start is all that matters. Winning regular season games with strong defense first but not getting to the Finals was supposedly unacceptable in previous seasons.

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Old 11-20-2015, 07:12 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Yes, the Cavs were not operating at full strength by any stretch. They still destroyed a slightly weakened Hawks team and took the Warriors to 6. They were a very strong team, based on the results. The Bulls gave the Cavs a tougher time than the Hawks.

Its also fair to say (IMO) that the Bulls were fairly diminished by the season long public smear campaign management decided to implement against the head coach during the very rare season where the Bulls actually had a chance to make the NBA Finals.

Sure, Thibs was being Thibs, but management decided to give Thibs an extension, so they knew what they were getting (or should of, if competent).

This all feels like beating a dead horse at this point and I can't really muster up the energy to care much about it anymore so that's about all I have to say.

As for the current team, its going to take a while for Fred to figure out what kind of NBA coach he's going to be. The "youth movement" for this team looks less than promising based on early results. Of course, players can improve over time.

If the Bulls are going to continue to be a strong defensive team and a weak offensive one and win regular season games then that's better than losing regular season games, but the getting to the NBA Finals to start is all that matters. Winning regular season games with strong defense first but not getting to the Finals was supposedly unacceptable in previous seasons.

My guess is we're seeing the last year of this current group if there isn't a very deep playoff run. Pau may well decide he wants to ring-chase elsewhere (or make more money, as the case may be). Noah's future is totally up in the air. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Taj moved somewhere depending on other roster moves in order to free up some time for Portis.

What really is the "youth movement?" It seems like it's just Snell and McDermott. That "movement" is succeeding regarding the latter, but seemingly failing with the former. Given Snell's draft position, it's not entirely shocking that he's not panning out. The Bulls have had some good success late in the draft, but you're not going to hit on every pick.

What'll be interesting is to what extent Dunleavy supplants McDermott when he returns and is back in basketball shape. I think you're probably right that the vets will continue to be relied upon, at least for this season.
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Old 11-20-2015, 11:22 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Its also fair to say (IMO) that the Bulls were fairly diminished by the season long public smear campaign management decided to implement against the head coach during the very rare season where the Bulls actually had a chance to make the NBA Finals.
Thank God it was management's fault and avoidable.

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This all feels like beating a dead horse at this point and I can't really muster up the energy to care much about it anymore so that's about all I have to say.
Good to hear that you're moving past it.
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