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Old 11-20-2015, 12:26 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Good to hear that you're moving past it.
Hopefully management is correct and the coaching change will lead to better outcomes in the next few seasons than the previous "disappointments."

So far the regular season is going well. But, those are just regular season wins.


As for the overall question of the thread, just like last season, the Bulls are better off in "win now" mode IMO. The window might have closed but the roster is built around vets and we are not just going to purge them all in one season. Making the development of Mirotic and McDermott the focal point of the season is a mistake if we're in "win now" mode and they just might not be good enough to warrant building around, especially at the expense of veterans that are actually good, although fading. If management wants to go "win later" than just bite the bullet and do it. This screwing around trying to do both at the same time is too hard for the Bulls to pull off. They have a hard enough time doing one right.

Its hard for me to complete the following sentence. The Bulls will win the NBA Title because...... If the identity of the team turns out to be tough D as the calling card, well, we kind of already tried that when the key contributers were younger / more productive. Guys like McDermott and Mirotic (stretch 4!) were supposed to unleash offensive fire and brimstone on the NBA, especially when juiced with the Hoiball.

Its been an odd start to the season. Some terrible blowout losses but overall a great record, although by small margins. Better than losing though.

Jimmy Butler is a stud with a cool aquarium so that's been fun.

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Old 11-21-2015, 12:36 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Its hard for me to complete the following sentence. The Bulls will win the NBA Title because......
It should be hard because it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the Bulls will win the NBA title this season.
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Old 11-22-2015, 05:00 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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It should be hard because it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the Bulls will win the NBA title this season.
I think it's best for fans to just accept this and save themselves the gray hairs. And I say that more because there are 3-4 teams out there who are just ridiculously good, and we'd need a bordlerline legendary (once in quarter century type of) team built to match what Golden State, Cleveland, and San Antonio have put together. These teams are just loaded up on talent, experience, and chemistry. Golden State has also had health on their side which is why they are pushing all-time great team levels right now.

Is it fair to judge our team's success based on whether they are/aren't reaching this level of play? It's a tough climate to win a championship in. It's too bad b/c we had a slight window there in 2010-2012 when health was ultimately our undoing. Even just to get out of the East, you've got Lebron James blocking you. There can only be 1 Lebron James and he isn't on our team.

We do however seem to be nestled into that large number of 2nd tier teams after the elites. FWIW.

I do maintain that we'd be up there in the uber-elites IF timing had worked out better; because we've had all the guys we need in the past 4-5 years, just never at the same time. MVP Rose, All-Star Butler, DPOY/1stTeam Noah, etc...these versions of these guys was just way too staggered. If they aligned at the same time we might be onto something big.
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Old 11-22-2015, 12:42 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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It should be hard because it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the Bulls will win the NBA title this season.
Management must feel differently. Last season they were disappointed that the head coach could not win the title (or get to the Finals at the very least). The team isn't much different from last season.

If management agrees with you, its time for them to move on to "win later." 1st guy out of town should be Gasol, for a decent return. Its time to tank.

The Bulls should be contending for a title or building towards one. Its hard to see how they are doing either right now.
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Old 11-22-2015, 05:57 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

or maybe this is all some smoke and mirrors , fake hustle attempt at a title .

maybe they have known all along this team in the thibs era was essentially some talented grinders with 1 dynamic scoring star in rose and was never really title material.

and when people started to catch on thibs became the fall guy

so they bring in a completely different coach in both style and temperament but leave but leave the same roster that had been slowly but surely tweaked for thibs.


you'll find very few teams that will let a 24 year old asset(omer asik) get away for nothing

or trade their all star small forward for what increasingly looks like 2 2nd round draft picks and not only not quickly replace but essentially leave the spot a liability for what is almost 2 years and counting.

teams chasing titles don't do that , teams chasing titles will either fortify their weaknesses or enhance their strengths ...they don't create holes for pennies on the dollar in trade value and let starter quality players get away for nothing to save money which is what both those moves were about.

they built what essentially is an old fashioned power team and now have a pace and space more modern coach at the head of it and didn't change the personnel at all

who is management gonna blame this time ?

my guess is derrick rose, the stories are already coming out, they certainly wont take the blame themselves, they will get a new pg next season and a new scapegoat the season after that.
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:13 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Management must feel differently. Last season they were disappointed that the head coach could not win the title (or get to the Finals at the very least). The team isn't much different from last season.
I think we've pretty adequately covered why the Bulls front office thought the team should get by Cleveland last year. That doesn't necessarily mean they think it can be done this year against an intact Cavs squad.

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If management agrees with you, its time for them to move on to "win later." 1st guy out of town should be Gasol, for a decent return. Its time to tank.
Is it your position that every team in the NBA that is not Golden State, San Antonio, and Cleveland should tank? It sure seems to be.

Trading Gasol is a problem is Gasol doesn't want it. He took a lot less money to come here and ring chase. You hurt your recruitment efforts with future vet free agents (an area where the Bulls traditionally have not had a ton of success already) if you jettison him after he took a discount to come.

Also, I am sure you realize that there is a 0% chance that the Bulls front office would ever pursue a tanking strategy. Aside from just generally not being people who would intentionally become non-competitive, the young pieces on the Bulls that would be the centerpiece of a rebuild are too good for the team to truly be able to tank.

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The Bulls should be contending for a title or building towards one. Its hard to see how they are doing either right now.
I guess this is true, conceptually, but what does it actually mean? Golden State is prohibitively good so the Bulls should just try to be bad?
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Old 11-23-2015, 11:37 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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who is management gonna blame this time ?

my guess is derrick rose, the stories are already coming out, they certainly wont take the blame themselves, they will get a new pg next season and a new scapegoat the season after that.
Certainly Rose. That's been going on for the last 2-3 years anyway. He's the next man up. Note Rose is only a problem because management decided to pay him so much money for so long. Bad decision in hindsight. Par for the course, really. Its a rarity when the Bulls' highest paid player is their best one.

After that? Jury is still out if Forman gets another coach. It will either be Fred or Gar.
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Old 11-23-2015, 11:42 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Is it your position that every team in the NBA that is not Golden State, San Antonio, and Cleveland should tank? It sure seems to be.

I guess this is true, conceptually, but what does it actually mean? Golden State is prohibitively good so the Bulls should just try to be bad?

I'm not really taking a position. If management truly thinks that the Bulls don't have a chance to win the NBA Title this season, then what are they doing?

What do you think the goal is this season?

And yes, I do think an organization needs to have a goal/focus and be laser focused on achieving it. At least successful ones should be.

If the goal is to win the NBA Championship, I'm having a hard time seeing what the plan is. If you are seeing one I'd love to read your thoughts.

It looks like management has successfully moved the goalposts already for this season and going forward. Good for Freddy and Gar.

The goal though may be to be good enough to make the playoffs, pay as little luxury tax as possible, and maybe win a playoff series. If that is the goal, management is doing a very good job and has been for quite some time.

Its funny, people say that the Bulls are stricken by bad luck. They had the pieces, just had them at different times. If they just had Rose in his prime, Noah from two years ago, Jimmy today and perhaps Dougie McBuckets and Niko (Stretch 4!) from two years from now then they would have a legit shot. The thing is this situation is kind of by design. When you try to draft and grow rookies on a veteran laden team, of course that's what usually happens. The Cavs on the other hand didn't think twice about trading Wiggins for Love. They are full-on "win now." What are the Bulls? Some guys on the downswing (Noah, Gasol), some guys in their prime (Butler, Gibson) and some guys that are leaning the NBA ropes (Niko, McBuckets). That isn't bad luck. That's how they decided to build the team.

One thing for certain. This current management hasn't been able to win a championship in about 12 years on the job now. Not even a Finals appearance. One eastern conference finals appearance. 12 years. And there doesn't seem to be a championship shot on the horizon either. And its sad that many feel its OK / whatcanya do? / shrug. This used to be a championship franchise. A long time ago now though.

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Old 11-23-2015, 10:06 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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I'm not really taking a position. If management truly thinks that the Bulls don't have a chance to win the NBA Title this season, then what are they doing?

What do you think the goal is this season?

And yes, I do think an organization needs to have a goal/focus and be laser focused on achieving it. At least successful ones should be.

If the goal is to win the NBA Championship, I'm having a hard time seeing what the plan is. If you are seeing one I'd love to read your thoughts.

It looks like management has successfully moved the goalposts already for this season and going forward. Good for Freddy and Gar.

The goal though may be to be good enough to make the playoffs, pay as little luxury tax as possible, and maybe win a playoff series. If that is the goal, management is doing a very good job and has been for quite some time.

Its funny, people say that the Bulls are stricken by bad luck. They had the pieces, just had them at different times. If they just had Rose in his prime, Noah from two years ago, Jimmy today and perhaps Dougie McBuckets and Niko (Stretch 4!) from two years from now then they would have a legit shot. The thing is this situation is kind of by design. When you try to draft and grow rookies on a veteran laden team, of course that's what usually happens. The Cavs on the other hand didn't think twice about trading Wiggins for Love. They are full-on "win now." What are the Bulls? Some guys on the downswing (Noah, Gasol), some guys in their prime (Butler, Gibson) and some guys that are leaning the NBA ropes (Niko, McBuckets). That isn't bad luck. That's how they decided to build the team.

One thing for certain. This current management hasn't been able to win a championship in about 12 years on the job now. Not even a Finals appearance. One eastern conference finals appearance. 12 years. And there doesn't seem to be a championship shot on the horizon either. And its sad that many feel its OK / whatcanya do? / shrug. This used to be a championship franchise. A long time ago now though.
To address the last part first, I don't really think the Bulls recent history qualifies as "sad." That to me smacks of a sort of entitled mentality where one thinks it's reasonable to believe your team should be winning a championship every few years.

The truth is, there are 30 NBA basketball teams. That means each team is "due" a championship every 30 years. Now, quite obviously, championships have not been evenly spread out. But it's important to realize those 90's Bulls won, in one way of thinking, 180 years worth of championships. To think another run like that is reasonably expected in the near-term just isn't realistic.

You say that the Bulls "used to be a championship franchise" and that it was "a long time ago now though" as though you believe the organization previously valued winning to a greater degree than it does now. I don't think that's accurate, nor do I think there's any evidence for it.

The Bulls used to be a championship team because they used to have the best player ever to pick up a basketball. The Bulls have not won a championship since then because they have not had that same sort of player that MJ was. The closest the team got was the MVP season for Rose (and even then, relative to the rest of the league, that Rose was no MJ). We all know what happened to Derrick. He got hurt. The Bulls would have had a pretty decent shot to win a championship had he not gotten hurt, but he did. They haven't really had a great shot at it since that point in time.

The "bad luck" you seem to be critical of the Bulls fanbase for recognizing is obviously real. It's not as complicated as you made it out to be. It's not about timing. It's about their one superstar getting repeatedly hurt and, at this point, having become a diminished player. That's not the franchise's fault. It's not Derrick's fault. Shit happens, sometimes. It's odd to me that you would somehow want to condemn the team for Derrick's sad injury history. Had Derrick been healthy, the Bulls may well have reached the Finals or won a title. He didn't. That could not be foreseen, and the same folks who now think that it was somehow a bad idea to max Derrick out would have been out with pitchforks and torches (quite rightly) had the Bulls somehow insanely done anything other than pay him the max.

Getting to the first bit, the goal for this season is to win the NBA championship. This is not likely to occur. It's clear, though, the Bulls are in win-now mode, though perhaps for the last time with this veteran group. The team recognizes (correctly) that this is the right course of action, even if it is unlikely. They have too many good players under contract to try to do anything other than win it all. Winning it all will require Hoiball to somehow make a material difference on the team. It will require Derrick to return to at least All-Star form. It'll require health and contributions from the younger guys. It probably won't all come together. But that's a better path to contention than simply trying to tear down and trade away every piece. The cap is going to rise significantly in the near future. The Bulls have some good young pieces once the older guys move on. If the team has blown itself up and is a bottom-feeder, good luck competing in the free agent market. It seems pretty clear the best option is to keep these assets around either as enticing teammates to free agents (once Derrick and Jo are gone, if they're gone) or to be used in a consolidation trade.

I've always found it insane that people think that blowing up a team the second they conclude that the team isn't likely to win a title is a good idea. The notion that tanking is the best path to contention has little basis in fact. Does it seem like Philly has a clear path to contention? Not really. That's not to say that rebuilding is never the right option, but it seems like there are people that think that only the top 5 or so teams in the league that have substantial chances of winning a title should ever be in "win now" mode, while the other 25 should all be fighting each other for the most losses. That just doesn't work.
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:46 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Certainly Rose. That's been going on for the last 2-3 years anyway. He's the next man up. Note Rose is only a problem because management decided to pay him so much money for so long. Bad decision in hindsight. Par for the course, really. Its a rarity when the Bulls' highest paid player is their best one.

After that? Jury is still out if Forman gets another coach. It will either be Fred or Gar.
in truth paying rose isn't a problem ....but you make him the sole dynamic scorer so even though he was banged up they were still playing him .

he tears his acl and hasn't been right since .

but they need scapegoats so the injured star is as good as any
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Old 11-24-2015, 07:06 AM   #56 (permalink)
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To address the last part first, I don't really think the Bulls recent history qualifies as "sad." That to me smacks of a sort of entitled mentality where one thinks it's reasonable to believe your team should be winning a championship every few years.
12 years
0 championships
0 finals appearances
1 eastern conference finals appearance


Your expectations are in the gutter if you find that acceptable.

In a results oriented business, if the desired result was to win the NBA Championship, that would not be acceptable.

But, then again, the desired results very well may not be winning the championship. By financial metrics, the Bulls are doing great. This team is certainly winning on the balance sheet. Just not winning much of note on the court over the last 12 years.


It doesn't seem like anyone here thinks the Bulls are legit contenders to win the title this year. (quite a turnaround from the championship expectations from last season, i guess the head coach does make a difference)

So it seems like most would agree that "win later" is the right course of action. If that's the case, its time to collect young difference making assets and draft picks, the higher the better. I would not hold your breath waiting for this current regime to get the job done via trade. Dusty phone and all. 12 years.

All we can do is hope and pray that the next 12 years go better than the previous 12.

Unless you find 12 years, 0 championships, 0 finals appearances, 1 eastern conference finals appearance OK.

If that's the case, well, I think we have the right people in charge.

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Old 11-24-2015, 07:08 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I've always found it insane that people think that blowing up a team the second they conclude that the team isn't likely to win a title is a good idea. The notion that tanking is the best path to contention has little basis in fact. Does it seem like Philly has a clear path to contention? Not really. That's not to say that rebuilding is never the right option, but it seems like there are people that think that only the top 5 or so teams in the league that have substantial chances of winning a title should ever be in "win now" mode, while the other 25 should all be fighting each other for the most losses. That just doesn't work.
I say they should simply reload around what the do have .

actually give hoiball a chance by giving him the type of players that will succeed in it, not acting like all players are swiss army knives

the team is supposed to be an offense 1st team and its currently 24th in offensive efficiency (6th on defense)

in reality hoiberg has coaxed more energy out of a veteran group his strength as a people person is showing there and they play a more exiting style of ball but thib's offense was actually 11th last season and in the 3 seasons he has had rose out there they have finished 11th twice and 5th once , the rap on thibs and offense has been quite overblown .

sometimes teams get to be true title contenders by building on what they have without needing to tear everything down but the notion of having a bunch of entrenched guys suddenly playing uptempo but with all the same guys when they were brought in to play a defense 1st philosophy is simply stupid

successful teams do occasionally change up their styles of play but never so extremely with so little done with player movement...its a recipe for disaster.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:20 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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12 years
0 championships
0 finals appearances
1 eastern conference finals appearance


Your expectations are in the gutter if you find that acceptable.
I guess I just don't feel about sports the way you do. I would never use terms like "unacceptable" to describe a team's performance, really. This is not the military. It's not my occupation. It's my entertainment product.

Viewing it this way is incredibly myopic. The Bulls have failed to make deeper runs because Derrick Rose tore his ACL, sustained a litany of other injuries, and has never been the same. Making that the front office's issue is nutty. But it's much easier to just say "unacceptable!" rather than actually have a considered viewpoint of it.

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In a results oriented business, if the desired result was to win the NBA Championship, that would not be acceptable.
This is getting a little @p ftcommenter-ish, no? There are thirty teams that have the goal of winning the NBA championship. So 29 out of thirty have an "unacceptable" result every year.

None of this is to say that I don't want the Bulls to win, but you seemingly take the position (though you were clear to point out you weren't taking a position ) that the Bulls front office has a goal other than winning a title.

What, specifically, at least in the Derrick Rose era, do you believe the Bulls front office should have done to compete for a title that it did not do?

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But, then again, the desired results very well may not be winning the championship. By financial metrics, the Bulls are doing great. This team is certainly winning on the balance sheet. Just not winning much of note on the court over the last 12 years.


It doesn't seem like anyone here thinks the Bulls are legit contenders to win the title this year. (quite a turnaround from the championship expectations from last season, i guess the head coach does make a difference)
Not sure if serious. First, I am not sure that "championship expectations" is a fair way to characterize last year's expectations. Most seemed to believe the Cavs were the prohibitive favorite in the East, just as they do this year. And I don't think Holberg has anything to do with any perceived reduced expectations this year.

The expectation that the Bulls won't win the championship is based on this:

Cleveland has the best player in a generation and a supporting cast of All-Stars.

Golden State has the current best player in the league, supporting star players, and a great system. We are witnessing likely the best team since the 72-win Bulls.

San Antonio is perennially great and has loaded up on new star talent as its vets have aged and taken a step back (the exact model you seem to think is folly for the Bulls).

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So it seems like most would agree that "win later" is the right course of action. If that's the case, its time to collect young difference making assets and draft picks, the higher the better. I would not hold your breath waiting for this current regime to get the job done via trade. Dusty phone and all. 12 years.
The "win now" vs. "win later" binary set of options is a false one. Tanking has not been shown to work. I would agree that trades have not been a strength of this front office at all, though. At least, not in-season trades. While perhaps that could change this year if they think they need one more move to make this aging squad compete this year, you are probably right in citing the dusty phone.

Who would you trade for this year? Melo seems to be the obvious candidate.

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All we can do is hope and pray that the next 12 years go better than the previous 12.

Unless you find 12 years, 0 championships, 0 finals appearances, 1 eastern conference finals appearance OK.

If that's the case, well, I think we have the right people in charge.
Rather than snark, I'd again ask that you identify what the front office should have done in the Derrick Rose era that would have led to a championship.

Again, Derrick Rose fell apart physically. If that had happened to MJ in 1989, the Bulls wouldn't have won any championships in the 90s. The only things that could have made a difference with Derrick Rose hurt would be something like "acquire Steph Curry" or "acquire LeBron James." Is there anything else you can think of that you believe would have netted a ring?

Your post makes me think about what it must have been like to be a Knicks fan in the 90s. You could shout "unacceptable!" all day long, but the truth is that unless you had MJ, you were screwed. The cold, hard truth may be that no team in the NBA without Curry or LeBron is going to win anything in the next few seasons. That doesn't mean you stop trying, but you might as well be a realist.

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Old 11-24-2015, 08:24 AM   #59 (permalink)
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I say they should simply reload around what the do have .

actually give hoiball a chance by giving him the type of players that will succeed in it, not acting like all players are swiss army knives

the team is supposed to be an offense 1st team and its currently 24th in offensive efficiency (6th on defense)

in reality hoiberg has coaxed more energy out of a veteran group his strength as a people person is showing there and they play a more exiting style of ball but thib's offense was actually 11th last season and in the 3 seasons he has had rose out there they have finished 11th twice and 5th once , the rap on thibs and offense has been quite overblown .

sometimes teams get to be true title contenders by building on what they have without needing to tear everything down but the notion of having a bunch of entrenched guys suddenly playing uptempo but with all the same guys when they were brought in to play a defense 1st philosophy is simply stupid

successful teams do occasionally change up their styles of play but never so extremely with so little done with player movement...its a recipe for disaster.

I do agree they should retool around some of the existing pieces and try to make something that is more Hoiball-appropriate rather than blow it up.

I'd hold off until the trading deadline to decide how Hoiball is working. These guys have been in the same system for a long time, the ball-dominant PG missed all of camp, the presumptive starting SF is out, etc. I do think that Pau and/or Noah probably need to go in order to make things effective moving forward, but I'm willing to let Holberg have half of a season to figure things out.

It's funny, because most of the angry fans have dismissed regular season wins as meaningless. Now, 12 regular season games into the season, everyone wants to make grand judgments about the Bulls' chances. It only seems reasonable to give the new coach 30-40 games to figure things out, if we're really only experimenting for what will work in the playoffs rather than trying to eke out every regular season win that is possible.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:57 AM   #60 (permalink)
K4E
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnrjr79 View Post
The cold, hard truth may be that no team in the NBA without Curry or LeBron is going to win anything in the next few seasons.
That isn't what was said during the Thibs' firing press conference.

The excuses have been made for years now. 12 of them. And counting. Different excuses every year. Year after year after year. "No excuses" though, right? I remember hearing that at one point.

12 years.
0 championships
0 finals appearances
1 eastern conference finals appearance.

"No Excuses"

-----

Everyone seems to agree that the Bulls are not going to win the title this year, or at least say its not likely.

If management is thinking "win now" they should make a move to consolidate assets and try and "win now." If they are thinking "win later" its time to make moves to turn the aging assets into assets that will be helpful 2-3 years down the road.

What will likely happen? If history is any indication it will be "wait and see," dusty phone and the blame game and more excuses when 12 years gets bumped to 13.

I hope to be pleasantly surprised. I would imagine that's something we can agree on.

I imagine this is something we also can agree on. We don't want to see the following.

24 years.
0 NBA Championships.
0 NBA Finals appearances.
2 Eastern Conference Finals Appearances.

I can't imagine you would find that acceptable. Then again, maybe you would. if 12 is OK, why not 24?

---

Also, if the Bulls are going "win later" they probably need high draft picks. That's how Cleveland originally got Lebron. That's how Golden State got Curry. That's how the Spurs got Duncan. That's how the Mavs got Dirk.

That's how the Bulls got Rose. A stroke of luck, getting that pick, but they were still in the lotto. The only reason the Bulls have that one eastern conference finals appearance. A stroke of luck after being bad. Now, the luck certainly turned on the Bulls after that re: Rose, so call it a wash.

This front office probably isn't going to wheel n' deal their way to the franchise altering superstar and superstar free agents don't choose to come here, so how are the Bulls going to get that high draft pick without being bad again?

Or perhaps its just acceptable to be one of the 16 teams that make the playoffs and perhaps win a 1st round matchup and shuffle the deck every 4-5 years. Like you said, we don't know what the decision making is. You can't hide the results though.

Last edited by K4E; 11-24-2015 at 09:54 AM.
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