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Old 11-24-2015, 09:05 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Originally Posted by jnrjr79 View Post
It's funny, because most of the angry fans have dismissed regular season wins as meaningless. Now, 12 regular season games into the season, everyone wants to make grand judgments about the Bulls' chances. It only seems reasonable to give the new coach 30-40 games to figure things out, if we're really only experimenting for what will work in the playoffs rather than trying to eke out every regular season win that is possible.
Spot on.

I wonder how much of the anger is spurred by the media. It seems that when the team is losing, I hear how there are "profound problems," but when they're winning, "it's only the regular season."

As for "blaming Rose," Rose has been the key to the team's success for 7 years now. They're just beginning the process of shaking off their "Rose-centricity." The fact that the Bulls have managed to make the playoffs every season of the Rose Era is a credit to the players, coaches and management.

Oh, and anyone second-guessing Bulls management for signing Rose to his current contract is either disingenuous, a brand new fan or suffering from amnesia.
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:17 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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That isn't what was said during the Thibs' firing press conference.

The excuses have been made for years now. 12 of them. And counting. Different excuses every year. Year after year after year. "No excuses" though, right? I remember hearing that at one point.

12 years.
0 championships
0 finals appearances
1 eastern conference finals appearance.
At this point, we're just rehashing the same stuff, but again, but last year's expectations were a bit different given the Cavs' injury situation.

I'm glad to see you believe everything you hear in press conferences, though.



Anyway, I'm glad to see you have no concrete ideas as to what the franchise should have done differently to be more competitive.
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Old 11-24-2015, 10:08 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Anyway, I'm glad to see you have no concrete ideas as to what the franchise should have done differently to be more competitive.
Like you said, unless you are actually working alongside the front office, you don't have any evidence as to why exactly certain decisions were made and which alternatives were turned down.

Sure, you can dig around for news stories, but that just gets "attack the sourced" so that's a waste of time. There is no way I know of to get the evidence you request.

What can't be disputed are the results.

12 years (and counting)
0 Championships.
0 NBA Finals appearances.
1 Eastern Conference finals appearance.

And that's with the absurd stroke of luck in landing Rose.


Looks to me like you will be actively making excuses for the "no excuses" regime if 12 turns into 24. Hey, to each their own. Like you said, we probably follow professional sports for different reasons.

Last edited by K4E; 11-24-2015 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 11-24-2015, 10:13 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

And, to be fair, the Rose situation, after getting lucky in landing him, has been a tough blow.

I'll say this....

As for what could have been done differently during the "Rose era" its hard to say, just like you say, when you are not in the board room so you don't have actual evidence as to why certain moves are made and which ones are turned down.

For me, the #1 thing that could have been done differently was to not focus on a public smear campaign against the head coach of the team last season when the door was open to at least make the NBA Finals. That and to not put pressure on the coach and team to develop rookies like McDermott and Mirotic during a "win now" season with veteran players.

The Bulls were a whisper away from making the Finals last season. Causing drama when there was no need to try and curry public opinion against the head coach didn't help. Expecting "win now" while developing rookies like McDermott and Mirotic who are not really fits for how your "win now" coach likes to play to begin with also didn't help.

Would that have mattered against the Warriors? Perhaps not, but you have to get there to know. And the Bulls almost defeated the Cavs despite all of that nonsense and the Cavs did take the Warriors to six. The Bulls tend to give these Warriors a good fight in their regular season matchups the last couple years.

They could have just fired Thibs at the end of last season without the pissing match and smear campaign and just wait a year to start focusing on the McDermott / Mirotic rebuild. Its not like anything positive came out of the approach they decided to take.

----

At some point though, it does just boil down to the results speaking for themselves.

This 12 year track record shouldn't be allowed to extend to 18 years.... 24 years.... 30 years..... At some point "no excuses" needs to mean something.

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Old 11-24-2015, 10:19 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

At some point though, don't you have to have accomplished something to get the "job for life" status?

Its like Kenny Williams with the White Sox. Except Kenny Williams actually brought a World Series to town, albeit many years ago.

The financial record for the Bulls is top notch though. Quite impressive on that front.
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Old 11-24-2015, 10:29 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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It seems that when the team is losing, I hear how there are "profound problems," but when they're winning, "it's only the regular season."
"its only the regular season"

Isn't that exactly what you said to say that Thibs' record setting regular season coaching performance over the last 5 years wasn't much of a big deal?
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:27 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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I do agree they should retool around some of the existing pieces and try to make something that is more Hoiball-appropriate rather than blow it up.

I'd hold off until the trading deadline to decide how Hoiball is working. These guys have been in the same system for a long time, the ball-dominant PG missed all of camp, the presumptive starting SF is out, etc. I do think that Pau and/or Noah probably need to go in order to make things effective moving forward, but I'm willing to let Holberg have half of a season to figure things out.

It's funny, because most of the angry fans have dismissed regular season wins as meaningless. Now, 12 regular season games into the season, everyone wants to make grand judgments about the Bulls' chances. It only seems reasonable to give the new coach 30-40 games to figure things out, if we're really only experimenting for what will work in the playoffs rather than trying to eke out every regular season win that is possible.

I think the direction is the problem, its not just an overload of bigs but a dearth of guards , jimmy is transitioning well but noah avg more assist in 16 minutes less a game, he is still a small forward playing the 2 , MDjr is a placeholder he is not the guy a team should look to as an advantage its sad that he is so much better than snell and doug ...if you aren't going to go out and get an uptempo guard the least they could have done is get a ballhandling 2 like mayo or someone flexible enough to call a play and bring the ball up to lessen the burden on rose , someone like kirk 10 years ago would have been perfect...but really any ballhandler big enough to defend either guard spot is fine

the whole offseason had the feel of complacency that it was the previous head coach's fault and nothing needed to be done when the whole league tries to get better in the offseason so by doing nothing you fall behind especially with a veteran squad so its not like there was a lot to count on as far as internal improvement.

its not about giving hoiberg a chance to get it I actually think he's been great considering the circumstances he was thrown into, its that the FO seems to run their jobs to spite the previous coach which is a bad way to do business.
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:49 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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"its only the regular season"

Isn't that exactly what you said to say that Thibs' record setting regular season coaching performance over the last 5 years wasn't much of a big deal?

Wait, so regular season wins are now a metric for success that you like? That's weird. I seem to repeatedly remember reading:

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Originally Posted by K4E View Post

12 years (and counting)
0 Championships.
0 NBA Finals appearances.
1 Eastern Conference finals appearance.
I don't see a mention of regular season wins in there.

So, regular season wins are important when talking about coaching performance, but irrelevant to front office performance? It seems like you just want to have it both ways in order to support your particular viewpoint.

In any event, now that we've determined that regular season wins are an important metric of success, you must be pretty happy that Hoiberg has the Bulls on a 54-win pace! That's a 4-game improvement over last year and better than all but one of the Thibs seasons.
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Old 12-02-2015, 01:22 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

Look, the offense this year has been downright putrid at times - we are #27 in the league in offensive efficiency per Hollinger's team stats -- but there are some promising signs I'm seeing:

- #5 in defensive efficiency. Linchpin of the team thus far.

- #8 in pace. This has been rising too. We started out around #16 IIRC, then got to 12, then 10, now 8. Not that pace dictates offensive success, but it's a step toward what Hoiberg is trying to do. It tells me the players are trying to run the system. I think it works brilliantly in spurts, then it falls apart and we revert to old habits. Thibodeau was usually bottom 10 in pace so I think the paradigm shift is taking alot of adjustment. I'm encouraged just that we're trying to get out and push the tempo. I think it's helped our D in an odd way, perhaps fatiguing our opponents in those critical 4th quarters that we've been crunching out.

- #12 in assist percentage. This has been going up too, similar to pace. Unlike pace though, nearly all the best NBA teams rank high in this figure. Bad teams don't know how to share the ball, good teams do.

- #5 in turnover ratio. Another very good sign. Pretty sure we were bottom half in the league last year in turnovers.

- #4 in three-point percentage as a team.

It's for these reasons why the Bulls are 10-5....in summary they've played fast, limited turnovers, shared the ball, made long-range shots, and defended opponents great overall.

So where are we faltering? It's really just 2 things:

- Terrible shooting from inside the 3-pt stripe. The 2 main culprits are Derrick Rose & Pau Gasol. Mirotic not doing great here either.

- Lack of offensive rebounding to compensate for the poor 2-pt FG shooting.

If the Bulls were doing these 2 things even at an average level, the Bulls as a team would be statistically at an elite level overall. So I sincerely hope Hoiberg is doing everything in his power to remedy these problems. Though personally I think we are running into a personnel problem: (a) Rose isn't who he used to be, and (b) Gasol is just falling victim to father time. Not sure what can realistically be done there. I've said many times, will say again, we sorta got stuck with Derrick Rose as you see him today. That is a really big handicap unless he finds a way to become useful consistently.

FWIW, Sagarin's SOS ratings say the Bulls have had the #6 most difficult schedule thus far....so opponents are going to be easier on average than what we've played to date.

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Old 12-03-2015, 07:24 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

Instead of a massive rebuilding project, maybe the Bulls should consider a major trade. I think the biggest weakness on the current team is the lack of depth behind Rose and Butler.

There are rumors floating around that Gasol may opt out if the Bulls do not make a serious run at the championship. This really closes the "window" for winning. The Bulls should consider going "all in" and making a big move now, to try to win the championship.

While anybody they might get in a trade will have some negatives, someone like Ty Lawson might make a nice addition. I realize he has negatives, like a big salary, but it might be worth the gamble. I am not sure who else might be available in trade and there is really not much available in the free agent market.
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:02 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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So, regular season wins are important when talking about coaching performance, but irrelevant to front office performance? It seems like you just want to have it both ways in order to support your particular viewpoint.
The team is playing pretty well. I'm not saying "Fire Hoiberg" by any stretch, he deserves a good long stretch to learn how to be a NBA coach. "Hoiball" has the Bulls at 27th in offensive efficiency, which I'm pretty sure isn't what many would have predicted to start the season.

Its interesting to see how many people are trumpeting the early regular season success of Hoiberg that were discounting the nearly all-time great regular season success of the coach that was fired.

The front office was disappointed that this same roster didn't defeat the squad that swept the Hawks in the Eastern Conference Finals and took the Warriors to six in the Finals.

The offense is much worse so far under "Hoiball." It will be interesting to see if the playoff success is any better.

It doesn't seem like anyone considers the Bulls title contenders anymore, despite having basically the same roster as last year. The arrow seems pointed down for many.

It will be interesting to see if Pau has faith in Bulls management this off-season.

Also interesting to see Mirotic taking such a step back under the new coach. Lots of players have actually. Rose. Gasol. Noah. Gibson. Snell. All have lower production so far. Only McDermott has taken a step forward but he's hardly an impact player and doesn't seem to be worth caring about much to this point. The front office seemed to think he'd be really good.

"Hoiball" wasn't supposed to lead to the 27th rated offense in the NBA. Fred was supposed to juice the offense. These same guys were the 11th most efficient offense last year.

That being said, the Bulls have some real quality wins. Many state that the point differential states that it might be a bit of a fluke, but its better to win the games than lose the games.

Last edited by K4E; 12-04-2015 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:13 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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There are rumors floating around that Gasol may opt out if the Bulls do not make a serious run at the championship. This really closes the "window" for winning. The Bulls should consider going "all in" and making a big move now, to try to win the championship.
Bulls management likely won't do this. They won't go "win now" or "win later." They are seemingly content to be good enough to make the playoffs but won't commit to a "win now" strategy, as they are focused on developing rookies like McDermott and Mirotic. Are these guys good enough to care that much about? Well, the front office seems to think so. The early returns are not there so far.

A team like the Cavs on the other hand sent Wiggins out of town right away to get a "win now" guy like Love.

Everyone has different approaches.

Paxson in 12 seasons has
0 Championships
0 Finals Appearances
1 Eastern Conference Finals appearances.

"Win now" isn't Paxson's thing. 12 seasons. And many feel the arrow is pointed down for the next few seasons. The years keep piling up.
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:17 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I've said many times, will say again, we sorta got stuck with Derrick Rose as you see him today. That is a really big handicap unless he finds a way to become useful consistently.
While this is true, Rose's MVP play under Thibs was the only time the Bulls have even advanced to the NBA Eastern Conference Finals over this last 12 seasons.

Its sad to see what he's become but under Thibs' tutelage he thrived and the Bulls were legit title contenders. That's been basically the lone bright spot of real success in this 12 year slog. And the years keep piling up and many feel the arrow is pointed down. Also troubling that getting the draft pick to acquire Rose was an absurd stroke of luck. Its hard to see that happening again. The Bulls were extremely lucky to get that pick. It paid off early and now the luck has turned on them.

I wonder where Gasol will want to be next season. That will say a lot about how he thinks management and Freddy has the team headed.
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Old 12-05-2015, 02:06 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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"its only the regular season"

Isn't that exactly what you said to say that Thibs' record setting regular season coaching performance over the last 5 years wasn't much of a big deal?
I'm tempted to say that you have me mixed up with someone else, but that's probably not it.

I'm the one who has consistently said that I think the importance of an NBA head coach is often overrated. I've also consistently said that, if you're going to claim that a NBA head coach is "elite," postseason success must back up the claim.

Nothing that has happened so far this season supports the notion that either Thibodeau or Hoiberg is "great." It appears to me that both can coach as long as the team's key players are willing to go along with the program.
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Old 12-05-2015, 10:46 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Nothing that has happened so far this season supports the notion that either Thibodeau or Hoiberg is "great." It appears to me that both can coach as long as the team's key players are willing to go along with the program.
One put up an all-time great 4-5 year run as head coach in terms of winning games.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/t...n-nba-history/

Freddy is off to a decent start guiding an already winning team with veteran all-star level talent but there are some alarming signs. He's supposed to be a great offensive coach but the Bulls are one of the worst offensive teams in the league. Many players are taking steps back this season. Rose. Gibson. Snell. Mirotic. Noah. Gasol. And he's still basically learning on the job. The team deserves time to gel of course and Freddy deserves some time to learn how to be a NBA coach but Thibs and Freddy are not comparable.

A Thibs team was never one of the worst defensive teams in the league. Strange that Fred's 1st NBA team so far is one of the worst offensive teams in the league. Fred has never done this job before so it does start to beg the question "does he know what he's doing?" He still deserves time to learn since the front office hired a guy who has never coached in the NBA before. Vinny Del Negro deserved the same.

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