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Old 12-07-2015, 10:27 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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I wonder where Gasol will want to be next season. That will say a lot about how he thinks management and Freddy has the team headed.
I'm not so sure the Bulls want Gasol back next season.
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Old 12-08-2015, 03:48 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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I'm not so sure the Bulls want Gasol back next season.
i agree with you

I believe they should trade him for help on the perimeter ...while freeing up time for portis
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Old 12-09-2015, 08:02 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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i agree with you

I believe they should trade him for help on the perimeter ...while freeing up time for portis
100% agree. I used to think that the Bulls couldn't/shouldn't trade Pau because he came here to take less money and it would be bad PR for future free agents. But at this point, he's saying he'll opt out at the end of the year, he doesn't really fit a high-pace system, and the roster is pretty badly imbalanced, so I'd move him.
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Old 12-09-2015, 11:30 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

I'm leaning toward trading Pau, too. Package him for the best backup PG we can get our hands on. I do value him more than most Bulls fans seem to, but of our expendable big men he likely gets us the best value (high production on good contract), and it's a virtual no brainer when he is opting out this summer. I worry about how our bad offense gets even worse, but maybe it could have a weird effect of opening things up for Rose and Mirotic (i.e., the 2 scoring options that we really need to get going).
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Old 12-09-2015, 01:29 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

If the Bulls are choosing "win later" then Pau is the first guy out the door.

He's very productive and has a good contract.

Starter on the all-star team last year. His PER is up to 21.1 this season. (highest on team right now of guys that play)

Its interesting to see how he's getting thrown under the bus by so many.

If the Bulls are trying to win this season though they will be hard pressed to replace that production though.

Strange that a coach was fired last season due to the front office being "disappointing" that it could not beat the team that went to the finals and now 20 games into "Hoiball" the talk is of blowing up the team. Nice slight of hand, that.

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Old 12-09-2015, 01:59 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Strange that a coach was fired last season due to the front office being "disappointing" that it could not beat the team that went to the finals and now 20 games into "Hoiball" the talk is of blowing up the team. Nice slight of hand, that.
This is a fallacy -- losing to Cleveland was just the tip of the iceberg; though for some reason people like to spin it as the sole reason. We all knew Thibs was on thin ice long before the playoffs even started. There were indicators of poor communication between him and the front office for at least 2 years. Then you add on their (and many fans') displeasure with heavy minutes load to injured players, unwillingness to play certain guys, etc. We heard about several players (3 starters IIRC) advocating for Thibs' departure in post-season interviews.

Notice these things have nothing to do with his ability to rack up wins or even his basketball intelligence. By all indications he is a brilliant hard-working basketball mind who is also stubborn as a mule, and perhaps too old school for his own good. People need to stop comparing Thibs to Hoiberg based on reasons that had no connection to why Thibs was fired. Hoiberg was brought in to change the culture to one that is more conducive to long-term success. You should always expect causalities with that big of a change. I would also focus on things beyond just W/L record after 18 games; e.g., are we playing with more pace, reducing turnovers, sharing the ball better, etc.

Also as an aside -- I don't see any (rational) fans saying to blow up the team. Trading Pau Gasol for an upgrade at PG is not blowing up the team. Though I do agree he is undervalued by many fans, and we'll be hurting for some inside scoring the minute he's out the door.

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Old 12-09-2015, 03:36 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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This is a fallacy -- losing to Cleveland was just the tip of the iceberg; though for some reason people like to spin it as the sole reason.
It was one of the the main reasons given by the front office. They seemed to think that this roster was championship caliber. Same roster this season as last season pretty much.

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We all knew Thibs was on thin ice long before the playoffs even started. There were indicators of poor communication between him and the front office for at least 2 years.
Same front office that physically attacked the coach prior to Thibs. They don't get along with coaches very well.

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Then you add on their (and many fans') displeasure with heavy minutes load to injured players, unwillingness to play certain guys, etc. We heard about several players (3 starters IIRC) advocating for Thibs' departure in post-season interviews.
And now you have a seemingly unhappy Gasol and Rose complaining about play calls at the end of horrible home losses to bad teams.

Dougie is getting lots more minutes though. He's not very good at NBA basketball, but he's getting the minutes. Mirotic has taken a step back under the "Hoiball" treatment. Wasn't Thibs' holding him back?


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Hoiberg was brought in to change the culture to one that is more conducive to long-term success.
According to the front office.

12 seasons under Paxson.
0 Championships
0 Finals Appearances
1 Eastern Conference Appearance (Rose / Thibs)

As for long-term success, Paxson hasn't been able to deliver that in 12 years. What evidence is there that he knows what to do other than make sure the team is one of the 16 that makes the playoffs and make sure tickets are sold? The only glimmer of contention the Bulls have enjoyed has been when Thibs was getting everything that was there out of the roster. Paxson smeared and fired Thibs for his hard work and success, although the smear was pretty much laughed at nationally.

So far Hoiberg has transformed what was the 11th most efficient offense in the NBA last season into one of the worst in the league, with the same roster.

Does Hoiberg know what to do in the NBA? No evidence of that so far. Its of course early and he deserves more time before any final judgments are made. Was he a great college coach? A couple Big 12 tournament wins in 5 seasons I believe. No serious advancement in the big dance. His team wet the bed in the first round last year.

Last year the boogeyman was Thibs. A true NBA defensive innovator and one of the most successful modern assistant coaches and head coaches going.

This year the boogeyman is turning into Pau Gasol for some reason, the starter on the all-star team last season and the guy with the best PER on the team, on a very friendly contract. Rose and Noah (the last two players in Bulls history to make all-NBA 1st teams) are also guys to "blame." Why are they playing so much more poorly under Hoiball than last season under THibs? Why can't Freddy get the most out of his players so far?

Always entertaining following the Bulls, that much is for certain.

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Old 12-09-2015, 11:12 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

At some point the front office has to make a decision on what to do with this season. Record aside, this team has looked worse than last years team and a lot of what the fanbase was sold on in regards to Hoiberg is just starting to deteriorate.

The Kids will Start! Reality - Well that lasted only about 10 games.
No more Heavy minutes! Reality - Somewhat true. Jimmy is only averaging about a minute less than last year.
The offense will look improved! - If by improved you mean worse... Then sure!
Now that Thibs is gone, the team will have better harmony! Reality - The chemistry on this team is absolutely horrible, no leadership, no accountability and I think its fair to say that most of these guys don't even like eachother.

Now that Thibs is gone, there is no more scapegoat to put all the blame on. I'm not saying this is Hoibergs fault, heck I don't think hes a bad coach at all.. Hes just not even close to being as good of a coach as Thibs. But thats besides the point. The Bulls front office can no longer hide behind the Babadook that they sold to the media. The front office is exposed and only they can fix this mess.

Ive seen this picture more than enough times in the past decade. Its time to rebuild.
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Old 12-10-2015, 04:49 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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It was one of the the main reasons given by the front office. They seemed to think that this roster was championship caliber. Same roster this season as last season pretty much.
When and by whom? And why does it matter -- it was obvious long before that he was likely to be fired.


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Same front office that physically attacked the coach prior to Thibs. They don't get along with coaches very well.
Has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You are making generalizations about Hoiberg and comparing him to Thibodeau. I only commented on why Thibodeau was fired, not on whether it was well executed or not. I've commented on that in the past and would rather not rehash that, as it is irrelevant to what Hoiberg is doing and will do as Bulls coach. Hoiberg seems to get along just fine with the Bulls front office, and probably will since he was their handpicked and long rumored successor.

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And now you have a seemingly unhappy Gasol and Rose complaining about play calls at the end of horrible home losses to bad teams.
They, especially Rose, need to get over it. Rose is playing statistically like the worst PG in the NBA this season. His production is a joke, and has been for the most part since long before Hoiberg walked in the door. I'm getting tired of his excuses.

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Dougie is getting lots more minutes though. He's not very good at NBA basketball, but he's getting the minutes. Mirotic has taken a step back under the "Hoiball" treatment. Wasn't Thibs' holding him back?
What? McDermott is playing just fine. Top 5 in the NBA in 3-pt percentage, leading our team in FG%. His defense is even getting better. I'd say he is pretty decent at NBA basketball. Thibodeau didn't give him a fair shot and by all indications was not a good coach for Doug.


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According to the front office.

12 seasons under Paxson.
0 Championships
0 Finals Appearances
1 Eastern Conference Appearance (Rose / Thibs)

As for long-term success, Paxson hasn't been able to deliver that in 12 years. What evidence is there that he knows what to do other than make sure the team is one of the 16 that makes the playoffs and make sure tickets are sold? The only glimmer of contention the Bulls have enjoyed has been when Thibs was getting everything that was there out of the roster. Paxson smeared and fired Thibs for his hard work and success, although the smear was pretty much laughed at nationally.
Not what I was commenting on remotely, but OK.

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So far Hoiberg has transformed what was the 11th most efficient offense in the NBA last season into one of the worst in the league, with the same roster.
By the same argument, he has "transformed" what was a mediocre defense last year into one the league's best. In the end we have a similar win percentage to last year. What was "wrong" with Thibodeau last year? I thought he was an elite defensive coach. Why were we only average when that's his thing?

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Does Hoiberg know what to do in the NBA? No evidence of that so far. Its of course early and he deserves more time before any final judgments are made. Was he a great college coach? A couple Big 12 tournament wins in 5 seasons I believe. No serious advancement in the big dance. His team wet the bed in the first round last year.
Is there evidence he DOESN'T know what he is doing? Basketball is basketball -- Hoiberg played a long NBA career BTW. By all measures he was a very successful college coach, it is silly to nitpick in an effort to prove otherwise. You could do the same to all the great college coaches, right up to the Izzos and Coach K's getting upset, etc.

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Last year the boogeyman was Thibs. A true NBA defensive innovator and one of the most successful modern assistant coaches and head coaches going.
Thibs was indisputably a problem. He was not the only problem, not by a mile, but alot of his criticism was deserved IMO. And even if he was unfairly criticized at times (perhaps he was), the bottom line is he lost his chemistry with the majority of the Bulls organization, from the front office down to many of the players. When that happens, a coach gets let go. That is just the way it works. Doesn't mean Thibodeau is a bad/dumb coach, far from it.

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This year the boogeyman is turning into Pau Gasol for some reason, the starter on the all-star team last season and the guy with the best PER on the team, on a very friendly contract. Rose and Noah (the last two players in Bulls history to make all-NBA 1st teams) are also guys to "blame." Why are they playing so much more poorly under Hoiball than last season under THibs? Why can't Freddy get the most out of his players so far?
I've always disagreed with the Gasol hate -- I'm with you there. Rose is absolutely a legit source of blame though. A guy that still likes to call himself a superstar playing significantly worse than the Jeremy Lins and George Hills of the league. This problem goes back to last year. You are splitting hairs to say he is playing worse this year than last year (esp. considering the alleged blurred vision this year). He was terrible in both cases. Same with Noah, who by the way is IMO playing FAR better overall this year with alot more energy. He was a joke offensively last year and still is this year. You are splitting hairs.
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Old 12-10-2015, 03:42 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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When and by whom? And why does it matter -- it was obvious long before that he was likely to be fired.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...528-story.html

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Seconds later, Paxson added: “We probably wouldn’t be sitting here if we won a championship” – a nod to the realities of pro sports: No matter how difficult a player or coach is to work with, winning cures all.

But the Bulls didn’t win in the postseason under Thibodeau, who was removed Thursday after five seasons. The team’s performance in the second-round loss to the Cavaliers was particularly galling, given that Cleveland played without Kevin Love and with a hobbled Kyrie Irving.

"We were all really disappointed in the way the season ended," Paxson said. "Cleveland is a great team and they're in the Finals. But we felt like, given their injuries, the path was there for us if we could have seized it."
Paxson was disappointed that this roster under Thibs didn't defeat the team that swept the Hawks in the Eastern Conference Finals and took the Warriors to 6 in the NBA Finals.

He stated it during the press conference where he fired one of the best coaches around.

Same roster this season. It will be interesting to see how Freddy does and if Paxson is equally disappointed again.



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Has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You are making generalizations about Hoiberg and comparing him to Thibodeau. I only commented on why Thibodeau was fired, not on whether it was well executed or not. I've commented on that in the past and would rather not rehash that, as it is irrelevant to what Hoiberg is doing and will do as Bulls coach. Hoiberg seems to get along just fine with the Bulls front office, and probably will since he was their handpicked and long rumored successor.
It certainly does! This front office had poor communication with the previous coach, Del Negro. Paxson actually physically attacked him. With Thibs he Jen Swansoned him and smeared him. Del Negro didn't have these same "communication problems" during his time with the Clippers. Thibs didn't have big issues with the Celtics. Team USA keeps wanting to work with Thibs as well so there don't seem to be problems there. The issue is the front office.


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They, especially Rose, need to get over it. Rose is playing statistically like the worst PG in the NBA this season. His production is a joke, and has been for the most part since long before Hoiberg walked in the door. I'm getting tired of his excuses.
Rose has regressed quite a lot under GarPax's favorite son Hoiberg (ok, maybe mcdermott is the favorite). Rose had a PER last season of 15.9. This season its down to 9.9. Rose doesn't seem hurt. It seems like Hoiberg isn't getting the most out of his players. This is the case for many players on the roster.

Noah: 15.3 -> 12.1
Gibson: 16.1 -> 13.9
Snell: 10.2 -> 6.5
Niko: 17.9 -> 14.4

That's a lot of guys off to a poorer start under "Hoiball." And he was supposed to make the offense better! Yeesh!


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What? McDermott is playing just fine. Top 5 in the NBA in 3-pt percentage, leading our team in FG%. His defense is even getting better. I'd say he is pretty decent at NBA basketball. Thibodeau didn't give him a fair shot and by all indications was not a good coach for Doug.
McDermott currently has a PER of 11.7, up from the awful 6.1 of last year. He can shoot very well. He does basically nothing else though. No rebounding, no creation for others, no stealing, no blocking, no nothing! That's why his production is so low.

Tell you what, how about you make a list of guys that currently have a PER of 12 or less this year and 10 or less last year and explain to me which players on that list are good at NBA basketball. That will be a very entertaining list! He of course can continue to improve, but as a 24 year old man at this point he doesn't seem like a guy that is going to be a real impact player in the league. We'll see though, it’s still early this year.

Doug very well may not be good enough to even really care if the coach is "right."

Quote:
Not what I was commenting on remotely, but OK.
My point is that Paxson has little clue about achieving long term success. Otherwise, why hasn't there been meaningful success in 12 seasons on the job?

12 seasons
0 Championships
0 Finals Appearances
1 Eastern Conference Appearance

He's not going to be giving a lecture on achieving long term NBA success anytime soon.


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By the same argument, he has "transformed" what was a mediocre defense last year into one the league's best. In the end we have a similar win percentage to last year. What was "wrong" with Thibodeau last year? I thought he was an elite defensive coach. Why were we only average when that's his thing?
Right, but Hoiberg was supposed to unleash "Hoiball" on the NBA and modernize the Bulls offense. That's his thing. So far the offense sucks. It is surprising that the defense is so good and that's great, but we have the personnel that can play great defense, based on the past five seasons. Thibs likely ingrained it in their DNA, at least the veteran core of the team. 11th in Def EFF was pretty low last year, no doubt. Previous seasons the Bulls ranked in the top 5 usually and #1 a couple times. Thibs had the Bulls at top 5 in off EFF as well when Rose was at the height of his powers.

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Is there evidence he DOESN'T know what he is doing? Basketball is basketball -- Hoiberg played a long NBA career BTW. By all measures he was a very successful college coach, it is silly to nitpick in an effort to prove otherwise. You could do the same to all the great college coaches, right up to the Izzos and Coach K's getting upset, etc.
The great college coaches have done more in 5 seasons than 0 meaningful march madnesses. That's how Coach K and Izzo became Coach K and Izzo. They won things of note. Hoiberg didn't. Coach K BTW loves Thibs, that's why he wants him on the Team USA coaching roster. Coach K is pretty good at winning.

Quote:

I've always disagreed with the Gasol hate -- I'm with you there. Rose is absolutely a legit source of blame though. A guy that still likes to call himself a superstar playing significantly worse than the Jeremy Lins and George Hills of the league. This problem goes back to last year. You are splitting hairs to say he is playing worse this year than last year (esp. considering the alleged blurred vision this year). He was terrible in both cases. Same with Noah, who by the way is IMO playing FAR better overall this year with alot more energy. He was a joke offensively last year and still is this year. You are splitting hairs.


Rose has regressed under Hoiball so far, along with many other players on the team. It is sad to see. Especially when Hoiberg was brought in to improve things. Right now the Bulls are the 8 seed in the east. Ick! Almost out of the playoffs!

Let's hope for a great bounce back against the Clippers 2nite! Maybe Dougie and Niko will embrace their new freedom and dominate a good team.

Last edited by K4E; 12-10-2015 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 12-11-2015, 05:42 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...528-story.html

Paxson was disappointed that this roster under Thibs didn't defeat the team that swept the Hawks in the Eastern Conference Finals and took the Warriors to 6 in the NBA Finals.

He stated it during the press conference where he fired one of the best coaches around.

Same roster this season. It will be interesting to see how Freddy does and if Paxson is equally disappointed again.
Of course he was disappointed. It doesn't mean it was "one of the main reasons" Thibodeau was fired. Given the context everyone knew for the entire year leading up to that (Thibs on thin ice), I read that more as, Thibodeau could've saved his job by capitalizing on a great opportunity to advance in the playoffs. That is not even remotely the same as firing a guy for losing a single playoff series. As I said before, that was just the tip of the iceberg...the straw that broke the camel's back. You outright said: "Strange that a coach was fired last season due to the front office being "disappointing" that it could not beat the team that went to the finals." I won't even deny that losing to Cleveland provided some convenient top cover but there were many many other reasons. Jerry Reinsdorf alluded heavily to these other reasons in his letter to the fans, which BTW I wasn't a fan of but did reiterate things we'd be hearing in the press for over a year.

You continue to cherry pick details that fit your agenda while ignoring/overlooking details that do not. I'm not about to change that, so I'll let you go on venting. I only wanted to clarify the fallacy of why Thibs was let go, and that it wasn't b/c of losing a single playoff series, or even his regular season W/L record. So by that basis, turning this entire season into a "Hoiberg won X games, Thibs won Y games" is a bit silly. It's one valid measure but there is so much more to measure. Hoiberg is trying to change the entire team culture, the entire paradigm, his goal is far more big-picture. I put some evidence of these measures earlier in this thread. It's going to take a long time, probably beyond this season realistically to take full effect. The Bulls front office recognized the need for a paradigm shift and are going to give him time to see it through. What I would like to see, however, is aggressive moves by the front office at the trade deadline and season's end to fit what Hoiberg is trying to do. I think some of the offensive woes are being caused by some of the mismatches with personnel, and the right trade or two could make all the difference.

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Old 12-11-2015, 11:58 AM   #87 (permalink)
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12 seasons
0 Championships
0 Finals Appearances
1 Eastern Conference Appearance

Other than the fact that deploying this list 15 times in the same thread is just plain old obnoxious, you do realize those numbers, other than reducing the seasons from 12 to 5, serve to damn Thibodeau equally with Paxson, right? That's why it is beyond bizarre to me you keep quoting this list while simultaneously defending Thibs' track record.

Pick a lane.
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Old 12-11-2015, 12:02 PM   #88 (permalink)
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The great college coaches have done more in 5 seasons than 0 meaningful march madnesses. That's how Coach K and Izzo became Coach K and Izzo. They won things of note. Hoiberg didn't.

What meaningful results to great NBA coaches achieve in 5 seasons?

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Rose has regressed under Hoiball so far, along with many other players on the team. It is sad to see. Especially when Hoiberg was brought in to improve things. Right now the Bulls are the 8 seed in the east. Ick! Almost out of the playoffs!

And now they're 5th, just a day later! Hey, it's almost like it's silly to make points like these when all the teams are bunched together within a couple of games of each other! Whaddya know!
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Old 12-11-2015, 12:05 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by yodurk View Post
Of course he was disappointed. It doesn't mean it was "one of the main reasons" Thibodeau was fired. Given the context everyone knew for the entire year leading up to that (Thibs on thin ice), I read that more as, Thibodeau could've saved his job by capitalizing on a great opportunity to advance in the playoffs. That is not even remotely the same as firing a guy for losing a single playoff series. As I said before, that was just the tip of the iceberg...the straw that broke the camel's back. You outright said: "Strange that a coach was fired last season due to the front office being "disappointing" that it could not beat the team that went to the finals." I won't even deny that losing to Cleveland provided some convenient top cover but there were many many other reasons. Jerry Reinsdorf alluded heavily to these other reasons in his letter to the fans, which BTW I wasn't a fan of but did reiterate things we'd be hearing in the press for over a year.

The other important thing to note here is that we shouldn't be taking press conference fodder at face value. The disappointment of losing to Cleveland is one of the few things the Bulls could reasonably express in public about Thibs' firing. The fact that he was a prick to management (and they were likely right back to him - so it's not about who's the better person here), that he continually violated minutes' limits, and that some players had quit on him aren't grievances that are going to get aired publicly.
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Old 12-11-2015, 12:50 PM   #90 (permalink)
K4E
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodurk View Post
Given the context everyone knew for the entire year leading up to that (Thibs on thin ice), I read that more as, Thibodeau could've saved his job by capitalizing on a great opportunity to advance in the playoffs. That is not even remotely the same as firing a guy for losing a single playoff series. As I said before, that was just the tip of the iceberg...the straw that broke the camel's back. You outright said: "Strange that a coach was fired last season due to the front office being "disappointing" that it could not beat the team that went to the finals." I won't even deny that losing to Cleveland provided some convenient top cover but there were many many other reasons. Jerry Reinsdorf alluded heavily to these other reasons in his letter to the fans, which BTW I wasn't a fan of but did reiterate things we'd be hearing in the press for over a year.
Right, and the reason that it was "seen in the press" is because that is what was being leaked to the press during the smear.

If Paxson is a man of his word, if you have to take him at his word, and this is what he said.

Paxson thought a reasonable expectation for this roster was to beat the team that swept the Atlanta Hawks and took the Warriors to 6 in the Finals. That's what he said. A coach was fired in part because that didn't happen. Paxson's words.

Maybe he is just full of ****, but if that's the case, why would we want him running the team?

(and yes, there were of course other reasons he was fired, that's not what i'm saying, i'm stating what Paxson's stated reasonable expectations for this roster are)

Quote:
Hoiberg is trying to change the entire team culture, the entire paradigm, his goal is far more big-picture.
Well, he's trying to "improve" on one of the more successful five year Bulls runs in team history and the lone time since MJ the Bulls were title contenders.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/t...n-nba-history/

He's not exactly off to a great start. He's supposed to be a great offensive coach and the Bulls are currently the 2nd worst team in the NBA in offense and many of the players have taken serious steps back in production from last year.

Many of the "Hoiball" fans are starting to say that most of the team needs to be overhauled in order to fit his "system" that accomplished little in the NCCA and is off to a rotten start in the NBA. Funny, the previous coach was called too "rigid" by many but most of the roster has to be overhauled in order for "Hoiball" to emerge from the worst offense in the league list. Seems pretty rigid. Thibs always just played the hand he was dealt and made the most of it.

And yes, the Uncle Jerry letter was classless. Not surprising.

Quote:
The Bulls front office recognized the need for a paradigm shift and are going to give him time to see it through. What I would like to see, however, is aggressive moves by the front office at the trade deadline and season's end to fit what Hoiberg is trying to do.
The Bulls front office has very little track record of success without Thibs milking every ounce out of the players.

They are known for the dusty phone and standing pat for the most part. You are going to be waiting a long time for aggressive moves, other than for cost saving. They have been known to make some cagey moves in order to avoid paying luxury tax.
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