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Old 12-11-2015, 01:01 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Originally Posted by jnrjr79 View Post
Other than the fact that deploying this list 15 times in the same thread is just plain old obnoxious, you do realize those numbers, other than reducing the seasons from 12 to 5, serve to damn Thibodeau equally with Paxson, right? That's why it is beyond bizarre to me you keep quoting this list while simultaneously defending Thibs' track record.

Pick a lane.
I'm sure you know this already.... but...

12 >>>>>>> 5

right?


We can agree on that I imagine.

The five year run under Thibs is the lone bright spot this franchise has had since MJ. Actual title contenders two years and last year a whisper away from making the Finals. Tough injuries to deal with in Rose, but Thibs always maximized the hand he was dealt.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/t...n-nba-history/

Of course, it came out that the Thibs hire was more Uncle Jerry and that GarPax had other guys in mind. Not really surprising.

The other 7 years were bad to average. And now the Bulls have the 2nd worst offense in the NBA after the front office hired a guy to improve the offense that was 11th in the league last season.

My lane is picked i fear. (i hope my fears are wrong and this Hoiberg thing works out swimmingly)

What's yours?

Are you really going to be defending this if it happens?

24 years
0 NBA Championships
0 NBA Finals Appearances
2 Eastern Conference Finals Appearances

Thibs also was doing stuff while Paxson was fumbling around "building with" Kirk Hinrich. 12 > 5.

Things like reinventing the way the NBA plays defense and winning a ring with the Celtics as assistant coach / assistant head coach.

Our front office was announcing Kirk Hinrich last at home games during this era.

So, yah, lane picked. Thibs = good. Bulls front office without Thibs = average to bad.

Let's hope the Hoiberg hire turns out to be much better than the first 20 games have gone. So far many established players have taken a nose dive the Bulls are the 2nd worst offensive team in the league.

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Old 12-11-2015, 02:16 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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What meaningful results to great NBA coaches achieve in 5 seasons?




And now they're 5th, just a day later! Hey, it's almost like it's silly to make points like these when all the teams are bunched together within a couple of games of each other! Whaddya know!
Also I learned today that winning a Big 12 tourney championship & a Sweet Sixteen appearance is a meaningless result by an NCAA men's basketball team. What would I ever do without this message board.
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Old 12-11-2015, 02:19 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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The other important thing to note here is that we shouldn't be taking press conference fodder at face value. The disappointment of losing to Cleveland is one of the few things the Bulls could reasonably express in public about Thibs' firing. The fact that he was a prick to management (and they were likely right back to him - so it's not about who's the better person here), that he continually violated minutes' limits, and that some players had quit on him aren't grievances that are going to get aired publicly.
It was also quite simply the most recent thing to have happened. In psychology literature there is this phenomenon known as the recency effect. Human beings have a tendency to attribute cause/effect to the most recent things that happened. So it's not surprising people think this way, but it is also wrong a very large percent of the time.
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Old 12-11-2015, 02:35 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Also I learned today that winning a Big 12 tourney championship & a Sweet Sixteen appearance is a meaningless result by an NCAA men's basketball team. What would I ever do without this message board.

sarcasm noted but it is really meaningless .

jerry tarkanian was far more successful and it went badly

pittino , calipari pj carlisimo, our very own tim Floyd from iowa state. all basically flopped

some people can make the transition and some cant and it actually appears prior collegiate success is not a good indicator, almost all if not all head coaches plucked from the college ranks are successful there 1st.
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Old 12-11-2015, 02:45 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Also I learned today that winning a Big 12 tourney championship & a Sweet Sixteen appearance is a meaningless result by an NCAA men's basketball team. What would I ever do without this message board.
Its actually a lot like being one of the 16 teams that makes the NBA playoffs several times but not doing much more than that.

No wonder Paxson likes the guy so much!

Hoiberg seemed like a decent college coach. Not great.

You run an analysis of guys that accomplished what he accomplished as a NCAA coach you are not Coach K and Tom Izzo back as comps, that's for sure.

Certainly not worth smearing and undermining a head coach during a season when the Bulls were a whisper away from making the NBA Finals.

20 games in it doesn't seem like a guy / system worth really coveting. He has no meaningful track record.

Of course, its only 20 games. Maybe several years from now and a couple roster overhauls down the road there we can have a roster where "Hoiball" can thrive. Plenty of cashed checks by many between now and then. Or maybe he'll get his act together this season. Could happen. I hope it does.

I spent a lot of time last season reading about what "Hoiball" would bring once we got rid of stinky 'ol Thibs and modernize the offense and unleash Mirotic and McDermott. So far, not so good. Nobody thinks the Bulls are title contenders anymore and the arrow seems pointed down. I was hoping to see what I was learning on message boards was true.

Hopefully the next 20 games go better!
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Old 12-11-2015, 02:48 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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I'm sure you know this already.... but...

12 >>>>>>> 5

right?


We can agree on that I imagine.

The five year run under Thibs is the lone bright spot this franchise has had since MJ. Actual title contenders two years and last year a whisper away from making the Finals. Tough injuries to deal with in Rose, but Thibs always maximized the hand he was dealt.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/t...n-nba-history/

Of course, it came out that the Thibs hire was more Uncle Jerry and that GarPax had other guys in mind. Not really surprising.

The other 7 years were bad to average. And now the Bulls have the 2nd worst offense in the NBA after the front office hired a guy to improve the offense that was 11th in the league last season.

My lane is picked i fear. (i hope my fears are wrong and this Hoiberg thing works out swimmingly)

What's yours?

Are you really going to be defending this if it happens?

24 years
0 NBA Championships
0 NBA Finals Appearances
2 Eastern Conference Finals Appearances

Thibs also was doing stuff while Paxson was fumbling around "building with" Kirk Hinrich. 12 > 5.

Things like reinventing the way the NBA plays defense and winning a ring with the Celtics as assistant coach / assistant head coach.

Our front office was announcing Kirk Hinrich last at home games during this era.

So, yah, lane picked. Thibs = good. Bulls front office without Thibs = average to bad.

Let's hope the Hoiberg hire turns out to be much better than the first 20 games have gone. So far many established players have taken a nose dive the Bulls are the 2nd worst offensive team in the league.
I am pretty sure the paxson front office record w/o thibs is still under .500

early returns on hoiberg look promising but probably not the level of thibs who according to an espn poll last spring of front offices was ranked 5th out of head coaches.

I don't see how hoiberg works out unless the expectations are lowered and/or significant player movement is involved.

thibs avg. over 50 wins a season despite a lockout and some significant injury issues...all things considered a very tough act to follow.
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Old 12-11-2015, 03:52 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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unless the expectations are lowered
Ding ding ding!

Although the guy running the team felt it reasonable to publicly state that this roster could have beaten the team that swept the Hawks in the ECFs and took the Warriors to 6 in the Finals.

Roster is "no good" ... rebuild... 3 more years! cha-ching!
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Old 12-11-2015, 04:19 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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The five year run under Thibs is the lone bright spot this franchise has had since MJ. Actual title contenders two years and last year a whisper away from making the Finals. Tough injuries to deal with in Rose, but Thibs always maximized the hand he was dealt.

Bullhockey.

5 years.
0 NBA championships.
0 Finals appearances.
1 Eastern Conference Finals appearance.

Either it works that way, or it doesn't. If not, feel free to pick a different trope.

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Old 12-11-2015, 04:34 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Ding ding ding!

Although the guy running the team felt it reasonable to publicly state that this roster could have beaten the team that swept the Hawks in the ECFs and took the Warriors to 6 in the Finals.

Roster is "no good" ... rebuild... 3 more years! cha-ching!

You keep saying the Bulls were a "whisper away." Were they or weren't they?

Also, please describe for me how Derrick Rose, in his current state, is good.
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Old 12-11-2015, 04:50 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Re: This team is better off rebuilding/Re-shuffling.

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Bullhockey.

5 years.
0 NBA championships.
0 Finals appearances.
1 Eastern Conference Finals appearance.

Either it works that way, or it doesn't. If not, feel free to pick a different trope.
OK.

No Thibs

7 Years
0 NBA Championships
0 Finals appearances
0 Eastern Conference Finals Appearances.

It certainly works that way when looking at Paxson without Thibs.

BRUTAL

With Thibs the Bulls were a whisper away from at least getting to the Finals a couple of times.

And his ability to get the most out of the teams he's given is well documented.




Super bleak for 7 years without Thibs.

Glimmers of hope with Thibs still without getting the ultimate prize.

Thibs has a great track record with the Celtics though while the Bulls were doing nothing.

Thibs has a ring with the Celtics and a Gold medal with Team USA. They loved him. One of the greats.

The front office that attacked Del Negro also didn't care for Thibs. They don't get along with coaches very well. They decided to smear him during a year where the Bulls were quite close to getting to the NBA Finals.
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Old 12-11-2015, 04:52 PM   #101 (permalink)
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You keep saying the Bulls were a "whisper away." Were they or weren't they?
A couple of season under Thibs, yes, they certainly were.


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Also, please describe for me how Derrick Rose, in his current state, is good.
He isn't. Many players on the Bulls have taken steps back this season under Hoiball.

Let's hope Fred can figure it out and get the most out of the players he's been given.
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Old 12-13-2015, 11:34 AM   #102 (permalink)
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A couple of season under Thibs, yes, they certainly were.
So then the FO gets credit for getting the team a "whisper away" from the Finals in those seasons, too, for whatever that is worth.


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Let's hope Fred can figure it out and get the most out of the players he's been given.

Well, he's on a 51 win pace at this point, which is essentially what Thibs was able to pull out of this same group, though Fred is doing it without Dunleavy.
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Old 12-13-2015, 05:36 PM   #103 (permalink)
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So then the FO gets credit for getting the team a "whisper away" from the Finals in those seasons, too, for whatever that is worth.
Yes, Paxson gets credit for the years he's been on the job.

12 seasons.
0 championships.
0 nba finals appearances.
1 eastern conference finals appearance.

That's his career as a NBA front office guy.

A couple of those seasons under Thibs the Bulls were a whisper away from the Finals at least and the best 5 year run was of course under Thibs.

We all saw how Paxson treated Thibs as a reward.


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Well, he's on a 51 win pace at this point, which is essentially what Thibs was able to pull out of this same group, though Fred is doing it without Dunleavy.
No doubt. Of course, nobody considers the Bulls a title contender anymore. And the fact that Hoiberg was supposed to improve the offense from the 11th most efficient offence in the NBA last season under Thibs and has made it one of the worst in basketball is troubling.

The team is seemingly playing hard enough for him to have a top defense though is a bright spot.

But we already knew most of these guys could play good defense.

Fred was supposed to improve the offense. Still plenty of time to improve.
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Old 12-13-2015, 05:48 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Thibs is a good coach. I love Thibs. (See my avatar.)

The Bulls are the only team that gave him a head coaching job in his 20 years in the league. Since his firing, despite multiple openings, he hasn't even scored an interview. That is telling.

Thibs had a good run. He got 5 years here, which is longer than your typical coaching stint. Had Derrick not blown his knees, perhaps Thibs would have won a ring and survived a little longer, despite his well-publicized personality issues. But, he didn't, and players were literally moving away during the offseason specifically to avoid him. I don't think anyone could legitimately believe that his time here had not run its course.
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Old 12-13-2015, 06:44 PM   #105 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone could legitimately believe that his time here had not run its course.
Thibs is a great coach. Not just good.

Reinvented the way defense is played in the NBA. Ring with the Celtics. Gold medal with Team USA. In the 12 years since MJ his Bulls teams were the only ones that were legit title contenders.



And he got the most out of his teams at an all-time NBA great level.

But yes, working with GarPax wasn't going to be an option anymore.

GarPax decided to smear Thibs in the season where the Bulls were one Lebron three and a Gasol ankle sprain away from having a legit road to the Finals. Classless and pointless for one, and as a fan waiting for the team to actually do something of note for many years now unforgivable.

But, whatever, that's in the past.

Going forward, the guy they were coveting while they were smearing Thibs was supposed to be some kind of offensive guru.

The Bulls are now one of the worst offenses in the NBA.

It would be like when Uncle Jerry hired Thibs from the Celtics despite Paxson wanting someone else and the Bulls were suddenly one of the worst defensive teams in basketball. That would make Thibs look pretty inept and make the hire look pretty stupid.

Of course that's not what happened. The Bulls ended the season as the best team in the league defensively. Thibs was good at his job and Uncle Jerry made a good call going to bat for a coach even though Paxson and Gar both wanted someone else.

Anyway, I don't think its a stretch to say that the hire so far looks pretty stupid, based on the premise on which he was hired.

Only 20+ games in and the guy deserves time to learn how to be a NBA coach (I’m not advocating firing Freddy, I’m saying give him time) but for those who felt that firing Thibs and bringing in Freddy was going to ignite the Bulls into a great offensive team, which improving much from 11th in the league under Thibs would mean, well, that's just looking pretty stupid so far.

Perhaps given time he can get it done and deserves the time to do so. The early returns based on why he was hired have been pretty awful. The offensive is terrible.

Last edited by K4E; 12-13-2015 at 08:09 PM.
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