Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA - Page 2 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums
BasketballForum.com is the premier basketball Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
User Tag List

Like Tree3Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-05-2016, 04:49 AM   #16 (permalink)
Legend
 
yodurk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 10,189
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Oh no, panic because our defensive rating is 0.3 points behind the #3 spot. They're slipping! LOL.

Nevermind the 9-2 record against Top 10 teams. 2nd best only to the Golden State Warriors and nobody else is even very close.

Compare that to teams many Bulls fans envy like the Clippers (0-7) or Thunder (2-6).

Sagarin's formula has the Bulls rated 6th in the entire NBA as of today.

No worries, regular season wins don't matter. Let's cherry pick isolated stats that make Fred Hoiberg look bad.

Strange the team plays better when Derrick Rose & Joakim Noah sit out. It's almost as if that had something to do with the team not shooting the ball efficiently....
yodurk is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-05-2016, 07:15 AM   #17 (permalink)
Moderator
Photobucket
 
jnrjr79's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Location Location
Posts: 8,415
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodurk View Post
Oh no, panic because our defensive rating is 0.3 points behind the #3 spot. They're slipping! LOL.

Nevermind the 9-2 record against Top 10 teams. 2nd best only to the Golden State Warriors and nobody else is even very close.

Compare that to teams many Bulls fans envy like the Clippers (0-7) or Thunder (2-6).

Sagarin's formula has the Bulls rated 6th in the entire NBA as of today.

No worries, regular season wins don't matter. Let's cherry pick isolated stats that make Fred Hoiberg look bad.

Strange the team plays better when Derrick Rose & Joakim Noah sit out. It's almost as if that had something to do with the team not shooting the ball efficiently....

Yeah, this. Noah goes out, Rose has basically only the real decent stretch of the season (and then goes out to be replaced by backup guards who sadly have been outperforming him), and the offense picks up. Strange. But Hoiberg was probably making them shoot poorly all along.

Bulls are also up to #5 in ESPN's power rankings.

The Bulls still have some structural problems, but it's still good to see a nice stretch of wins.
jnrjr79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2016, 07:39 AM   #18 (permalink)
♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫
Photobucket
 
Dornado's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 14,320
Mentioned: 316 Post(s)
Tagged: 5 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1033 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

I think the team started "playing better" before Rose went down with his most recent injury and I actually think Rose himself started to look a little better (at least based on my ever scientific 'eye-test'). We've obviously continued to win in his absence, but I don't think there's causation there.

It is way too early to tell with this team (which is frustrating since it is January) - I think Hoiberg is still figuring out what works best and I think the players are still learning and adjusting to their roles, not just in the offense, but on the team generally. I think we can all agree at this point that the introduction of "Hoiball" hasn't fundamentally changed or revolutionized the way we play offense. I think that only comes as a shock to those who underrate the previous coaching staff on that front... I don't think Tom Thibodeau's offensive sets were ever a problem (his ability to work/co-exist with the personnel aside). The question is whether or not things can change before the snow starts to melt, at least to the point where we are an effective and dangerous offense by the time the playoffs start. I don't think we're all of the sudden going to become the '80's Celtics or the Steve Nash Suns on offense, but we have enough talent to be a top 5-10 O in the association this year, and that could make for a fun playoff run.

I'm going to try to avoid getting too high or too low... a week and a half ago (or whenever that Brooklyn loss was) I was creeping towards the Bulls fan ledge like everyone else... now things seem to be pointed in the right direction, but who the hell knows.
__________________
Dornado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2016, 12:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
Legend
 
yodurk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 10,189
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

I still maintain that in spite of the Bulls' offensive rating last year under Thibodeau (which may have been his best offense in the 5 years he was here), he was not a great offensive coach. From all I gathered in his 5 years as coach, it seems he just didn't spend much practice time on offensive sets. He kept offensive sets very basic and slow-paced, and in turn it was predictable for opponents, especially in a playoff series when opponents learn everything you're doing very precisely. How many times did the Bulls just run a basic pick and roll, or pick and pop last year? Like 20-something times per game and I'm probably not exaggerating. That's a 2-man game, the most basic play in basketball other than an isolation. Another large % of Thibs' plays were throw the ball into Pau or Taj on the low-post and let them go to work grind-it-out style. This is why the Bulls were bottom 10 in the league in pace, and we might've led the league in shot clock violations too. You can win games this way but it's not pretty and I rarely see this style advance deep into the playoffs.

Thibodeau tried to implement a read-and-react offense a few seasons ago, and he abandoned it when guys weren't doing it correctly and the team was suffering. Hoiberg is mostly trying to do the same thing, except he is trying not to give up on it so quickly. Some of this is probably personnel, but you do need to practice offense and I don't think Thibodeau did this enough. Just my opinion.
yodurk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2016, 12:55 PM   #20 (permalink)
Moderator
Photobucket
 
jnrjr79's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Location Location
Posts: 8,415
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodurk View Post
I still maintain that in spite of the Bulls' offensive rating last year under Thibodeau (which may have been his best offense in the 5 years he was here), he was not a great offensive coach.

The Bulls offensive efficiency under Thibs was as follows:

Last year: 10th
13-14: 28th
12-13: 23rd
11-12: 5th (and #2 in defense - you forget how amazing the D-Rose MVP year was.)
10-12: 12th

A pretty mixed bag, altogether. You can see Derrick Rose playing in basketball games, at least until this year, makes a dramatic difference.
jnrjr79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2016, 08:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
K4E
Benchwarmer
 

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnrjr79 View Post
You can see Derrick Rose playing in basketball games, at least until this year, makes a dramatic difference.

Adding Gasol helped a lot last year. And Rose was decent. And Butler taking a big step up.

Nice to see the team starting to turn it around. If they keep shooting 55% and a perfect 20-20 from the line they will be moving out of the cellar quickly.
K4E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2016, 08:39 PM   #22 (permalink)
K4E
Benchwarmer
 

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnrjr79 View Post
A pretty mixed bag, altogether.

The roster was the mixed bag.

Have not heard much from Nate Robinson and DJ Augistin anymore.
K4E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 07:31 AM   #23 (permalink)
Moderator
Photobucket
 
jnrjr79's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Location Location
Posts: 8,415
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by K4E View Post
The roster was the mixed bag.

Have not heard much from Nate Robinson and DJ Augistin anymore.

DJ has fallen off a cliff. Nate tore his ACL, though, so I'm not sure that's terribly relevant.

Thibs had a very nice record at getting scoring production out of midget point guards.
jnrjr79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 07:38 AM   #24 (permalink)
Legend
 
yodurk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 10,189
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnrjr79 View Post
The Bulls offensive efficiency under Thibs was as follows:

Last year: 10th
13-14: 28th
12-13: 23rd
11-12: 5th (and #2 in defense - you forget how amazing the D-Rose MVP year was.)
10-12: 12th

A pretty mixed bag, altogether. You can see Derrick Rose playing in basketball games, at least until this year, makes a dramatic difference.
Oh right, easy to forget the lockout year...due to not only the lockout, but Rose's ACL injury as well. But you are right, that 11-12 team was the best Thibs team.
yodurk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 07:41 AM   #25 (permalink)
Legend
 
yodurk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 10,189
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Saw somebody post this over at RealGM:

Before Xmas: 27th Off Rtg, 4th Def Rtg

After Xmas: 4th Off Rtg, 16th Def Rtg

K4E is correct the D hasn't been as good since the offensive surge recently. Quality of opponent has been high so that could have something to do with it. But more likely, I think the team is just trying hard to fix the offense and perhaps overcompensating. The good news is the offense has been elite ever since the loss to the Nets, and the D hasn't completely fallen off, just not playing as elite as they were.

If they keep this chemistry going, I think they are 1 solid trade (big man for versatile G/F) from being a legit challenger to Cleveland in the playoffs; assuming health and all that. It's been quite a turnaround. Though I still think they need to go find someone in a trade, and to go "all in" it can't be Pau Gasol who gets traded. TBH, I'm having a hard time figuring out who exactly we can/should target in a trade.
yodurk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 07:49 AM   #26 (permalink)
Moderator
Photobucket
 
jnrjr79's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Location Location
Posts: 8,415
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodurk View Post
Saw somebody post this over at RealGM:

Before Xmas: 27th Off Rtg, 4th Def Rtg

After Xmas: 4th Off Rtg, 16th Def Rtg

K4E is correct the D hasn't been as good since the offensive surge recently. Quality of opponent has been high so that could have something to do with it. But more likely, I think the team is just trying hard to fix the offense and perhaps overcompensating. The good news is the offense has been elite ever since the loss to the Nets, and the D hasn't completely fallen off, just not playing as elite as they were.

If they keep this chemistry going, I think they are 1 solid trade (big man for versatile G/F) from being a legit challenger to Cleveland in the playoffs; assuming health and all that. It's been quite a turnaround. Though I still think they need to go find someone in a trade, and to go "all in" it can't be Pau Gasol who gets traded. TBH, I'm having a hard time figuring out who exactly we can/should target in a trade.

I also think the slip in D is the roster shakeup/injury situation. Noah on the bench, Niko starting at the 3, and Rose out for a few games (which, while he's not been playing elite defense by any means, still means more Brooks on the court).
yodurk likes this.
jnrjr79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 07:50 AM   #27 (permalink)
Moderator
Photobucket
 
jnrjr79's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Location Location
Posts: 8,415
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by K4E View Post
Adding Gasol helped a lot last year. And Rose was decent. And Butler taking a big step up.

Nice to see the team starting to turn it around. If they keep shooting 55% and a perfect 20-20 from the line they will be moving out of the cellar quickly.

BTW, the passive aggressiveness of the last sentence here is kind of amazing.
jnrjr79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 04:57 AM   #28 (permalink)
K4E
Benchwarmer
 

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

Bulls are in free fall.

Offense is the 5th worst in the NBA. "Championship roster" under Hoiball.

Thibs is gone and Jen Swanson is still around. Tons of injuries.

Bulls have a negative point differential now. Awful.

Pace is up! Hoiball!

Paxson still collecting paychecks.
K4E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 09:13 AM   #29 (permalink)
Legend
 
yodurk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 10,189
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by K4E View Post
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

Bulls are in free fall.

Offense is the 5th worst in the NBA. "Championship roster" under Hoiball.

Thibs is gone and Jen Swanson is still around. Tons of injuries.

Bulls have a negative point differential now. Awful.

Pace is up! Hoiball!

Paxson still collecting paychecks.

You contradict yourself in your own post. Mocking a team for allegedly being a championship roster when half the rotation is not even playing right now. Of course this is America where we must attribute blame to everything, so tell me who is to blame for Mirotic having his appendix removed, or Butler for landing awkward on his knee. Why don't I start blaming Thibodeau for Dunleavy's back problems since it is obviously somebody's fault.
yodurk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 09:55 AM   #30 (permalink)
K4E
Benchwarmer
 

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Re: Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodurk
You contradict yourself in your own post. Mocking a team for allegedly being a championship roster when half the rotation is not even playing right now.

The old coach managed to win regular season games while dealing with injuries.

Now its, waaahhhhh, injuries, its too hard to win.

'Next man up, we have enough' has turned into 'wahhh injuries' and 'this is a bad roster.'



Quote:
Of course this is America where we must attribute blame to everything, so tell me who is to blame for Mirotic having his appendix removed, or Butler for landing awkward on his knee. Why don't I start blaming Thibodeau for Dunleavy's back problems since it is obviously somebody's fault.
If a player gets hurt its the head coach's fault for playing them too many minutes. At least that was the story last season.

There is no narrative being spoon fed to the beat writers this season so you don't really see blame stories from them.

There are always excuses for mr. "no excuses."

12 seasons
0 championships
0 finals appearances
1 eastern conference finals appearance.

current state of franchise: complete freaking mess.
K4E is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:43 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2002 2013 BasketballBoards.net.