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Old 04-20-2016, 06:49 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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Originally Posted by jnrjr79 View Post
Yeah, I am in no way desperate to move Butler, but I would likely do it under those terms.

The more reports keep trickling out in the past week or two, the more it seems the Bulls organization is pretty broken. There appears to be Gar-Pax tension, Gar-Jimmy tension, Jimmy/Pau-Noah/Rose/Taj? tension, etc. It's hard to find a collection of people here that are on the same page.

Anyway, I assume the Bulls keep Butler. Maybe Rose goes. If Rose doesn't, you're looking at a minimum 2-year rebuild/retool process.

My general impression is Butler has turned into a bit of a tool and I agree with the Pax criticism that he did way too much talking about leading and likely too little actual leading. Still, he's the best player on the team by a country mile, and he may well figure out how to lead his teammates more effectively. If he's incompatible with Hoiberg's sytem, it's incumbent on Fred to tailor what the team does to his players' strengths.

the thing for me as far as butler is concerned is that this comes off as natural evolution.

jimmy has worked his tail off and wants to enjoy the perks of said labor.

he wants to be the face of the franchise ...as of right now there are growing pains and there should be ,the team is not winning , the old guard (rose noah) are still there along with most of the core from the previous regime

jimmy has the skills for hoiball but mentally and ego-wise its a bad fit

isoball is how jimmy became a star and its been effective, to bring him back into the fold will take some doing and until the system shows its worth having its not likely butler will buy into it fully .

the smart play here is to trade jimmy and do a complete rebuild and start fresh with a new core...or fire the coach and bring in a respected veteran coach who excels at isolation offense while keeping the other players motivated and playing defense ...mike woodson comes to mind but that is simply a road to being an also ran for a while longer.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:33 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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the thing for me as far as butler is concerned is that this comes off as natural evolution.

jimmy has worked his tail off and wants to enjoy the perks of said labor.

he wants to be the face of the franchise ...as of right now there are growing pains and there should be ,the team is not winning , the old guard (rose noah) are still there along with most of the core from the previous regime

jimmy has the skills for hoiball but mentally and ego-wise its a bad fit

isoball is how jimmy became a star and its been effective, to bring him back into the fold will take some doing and until the system shows its worth having its not likely butler will buy into it fully .

the smart play here is to trade jimmy and do a complete rebuild and start fresh with a new core...or fire the coach and bring in a respected veteran coach who excels at isolation offense while keeping the other players motivated and playing defense ...mike woodson comes to mind but that is simply a road to being an also ran for a while longer.

I would take issue with the notion that isoball has been effective. It's been great for Jimmy's stat line. However, the last two seasons, in which Jimmy's iso game reached its prominence, is exactly when the Bulls have gone off the rails. Now, that may well be due to injuries, guys getting older, internal dysfunction, etc., but there hasn't been a correlation, let alone causation, of isoball working well for this team.

I do agree that Jimmy is just feeling his oats and it may all level out. He's a guy who has never been expected to be a star player. He didn't come up through high school and college with a big pedigree, anticipation, etc. So, he's getting his first taste of being "the guy." The way he's handled it has obviously caused some friction. But the old guard will be gone soon enough, so I'm not in any hurry to get him out of town due to the discord. I also don't believe he's untouchable.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:37 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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Originally Posted by K4E View Post
Eh, not so fast.

The smear is on. Hard workin' 2 way asset Jimmy Butler is being portrayed all over the media as a premadonna and a malcontent.

This lowers his value. His arrow is pointed down sadly, and the Bulls media machine is helping make that happen. A quality org will know what to do with him, but given that the Bulls have poisoned the waters back home, they will also know the Bulls will be looking to ship him out.
This is bogus. If the Bulls wanted to move on from Jimmy, the last thing they would do is initiate a smear campaign. It is about a thousand percent more likely that the leaks about discord in the locker room caused by Jimmy are coming from players.

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He won't be second fiddle to guys like Dougie McBuckets I imagine.
Of course, this is a distortion of what I was talking about, which is whether Jimmy would be comfortable playing second fiddle to a superior player. But as per usual, you substitute a strawman to knock down.

Do you think Jimmy would be ready to relegate himself for a true #1 player?

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Last year at this time the Bulls were the #3 seed in the East and in the midst of winning a playoff series.

One year later, post Thibs firing, the team is a shambles. Great job GarPax. Let's keep having them collect paychecks.
It's funny how sometimes 2nd round exists from the playoffs in your world are good accomplishments, and other times indicia of failure.
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Old 04-21-2016, 10:30 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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This is bogus. If the Bulls wanted to move on from Jimmy, the last thing they would do is initiate a smear campaign. It is about a thousand percent more likely that the leaks about discord in the locker room caused by Jimmy are coming from players.
Eh, not really.

Case in point, this recent gem. This is by Bulls employee Sam Smith.

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketba...ahlberg/301183

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On Saturday, Bulls.com reporter Sam Smith told Jason McIntyre on FOX Sports Radio that Butler has a “colossal ego” and isolates himself from his teammates.

“He’s really kind of full of himself,” Smith said. “He hangs around with Mark Wahlberg, the actor, and lets us know about that a lot. He goes around to premiers or whatever. He announced before the season that he’s the leader of the team and guys are looking around going, ‘What are you talking about?’

“It’s a really weird dynamic. He doesn’t like to socialize with the other players. Back in November they had a team bonding thing. They all chartered a bus and went up to wine country for the day. The only one who didn’t go was Jimmy.”


When the Bulls corporate employees / communications team is out saying this in public, its not by accident.

You would never hear Sam Smith saying such things about Reinsdorf in his current role. Or Paxson (unless he was being smeared on his way out). Or Gar (unless he was being smeared on his way out).

You did see plenty of stories like this last year about Thibs of course. Rose was getting a bit of this treatment when he wasn't coming back from his knee injury in the way they wanted.

What a dysfunctional mess Paxson runs. Bulls dysfunction.
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:11 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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Originally Posted by K4E View Post
Eh, not really.

Case in point, this recent gem. This is by Bulls employee Sam Smith.

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketba...ahlberg/301183





When the Bulls corporate employees / communications team is out saying this in public, its not by accident.

You would never hear Sam Smith saying such things about Reinsdorf in his current role. Or Paxson (unless he was being smeared on his way out). Or Gar (unless he was being smeared on his way out).

You did see plenty of stories like this last year about Thibs of course. Rose was getting a bit of this treatment when he wasn't coming back from his knee injury in the way they wanted.

What a dysfunctional mess Paxson runs. Bulls dysfunction.


Sorry, but your position makes no sense. The Bulls don't want Sam Smith out on the radio saying this sort of stuff, at least if their goal is to move Jimmy.

Moreover, Sam Smith isn't the source of the leaks, which is part of the discussion. He's discussing info that has already been reported, and FWIW, appears perfectly accurate.
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Old 04-21-2016, 12:16 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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Sorry, but your position makes no sense. The Bulls don't want Sam Smith out on the radio saying this sort of stuff, at least if their goal is to move Jimmy.
The goal isn't to move Jimmy and get maximum value, the goal is to smear Jimmy.

The goal of the Bulls isn't winning in this case. (it rarely is, other than making the 1st round of the playoffs) Its about management saving face when its time to get rid of a guy they want to get rid of and preserving their own jobs. If locally Jimmy turns into "the bad guy" it makes their dumping a multi time all-star look like them getting rid of a malcontent.

Its the same method used to dump a top 3 in the NBA coach. You were following that story I believe.

This isn't any position of mine. It is what happens time and time again with this team. Its as predictable as the sun rising in the East. This is how the Bulls org conducts its business.

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Moreover, Sam Smith isn't the source of the leaks, which is part of the discussion. He's discussing info that has already been reported, and FWIW, appears perfectly accurate.
Sam Smith isn't out in public saying these things if he thinks it will rankle Bulls management. You admit to knowing that if it comes from KC Johnson, it comes from the Bulls Org and they want it out there.

Even moreso with Sam, who is a Bulls employee at this point.

Bulls management is OK with this negative perception of Jimmy out there at this point. Otherwise, Sam would not be talking about it as he is. Jimmy is the guy who called out Freddy. They don't like that.

There is a negative perception about Uncle Jerry, Pax and Gar. You won't ever hear Sam lay the hammer against those guys.
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Old 04-21-2016, 12:26 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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Do you think Jimmy would be ready to relegate himself for a true #1 player?
Playing alongside a true 1A like Lebron? I think Jimmy would certainly know his role there.

He's the #1 by a mile on this team and is going to want to be treated as such. Welcome to the NBA.



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It's funny how sometimes 2nd round exists from the playoffs in your world are good accomplishments, and other times indicia of failure.
As for Thibs, he gets the most out of the talent he's given to work with. Year after year.

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wo...hibs.png?w=575

We all know this and so does the NBA. That's why he is not only a coach now but a team president.

I wonder what Paxson would fetch on the open market based on his merit? Ha, that's funny to think about. I wonder if he would even get an interview?

It isn't funny that this organization under Paxson in a decade in a half has only made the eastern conference finals one lousy time. And that was with a guy coaching the team that got more out of the talent he was given than nearly anyone else in history.

That's not funny at all.
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Old 04-21-2016, 12:33 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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jimmy has the skills for hoiball but mentally and ego-wise its a bad fit

isoball is how jimmy became a star and its been effective, to bring him back into the fold will take some doing and until the system shows its worth having its not likely butler will buy into it fully .
You have to build your NBA team around the star talent that you do have, if you are trying to contend.

If the best player on your team doesn't want to play unproven / playoff-missing Hoiball, then its not a match. And talent is king in the NBA.

They can (and have) find D leaguers to do whatever Freddy wants. That team won't win anything of note.
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Old 04-21-2016, 12:43 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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Playing alongside a true 1A like Lebron? I think Jimmy would certainly know his role there.
He's the #1 by a mile on this team and is going to want to be treated as such. Welcome to the NBA.


The first sentence is responsive. The second sentence is again another strawman. We all agree he's the best player on this team. That's the problem. It's the problem because I think we all agree he's not a good enough best player on a team to win a championship.

There are many more players than LeBron that are better than Jimmy Buckets to whom he would need to defer. So, sure, he might defer to the best player since Jordan. Would he defer to Westbrook? Durant? Cousins? Davis? Steph? Those guys are all better than him and should be deferred to. What about Leonard? Harden? Paul? Klay? Wall? Lowry? Melo? Could he live with those as at least equals? Or would he still be trying to claim the team as his own?

So, at that point, you have to assess whether he's capable of being second fiddle to another player or not. Many guys feel they must be "the guy" on a team, even if they won't win. That's not the kind of guy you want. As you would say, "welcome to the NBA." So sure, Jimmy is the undisputed best player of this team, but the goal is for that not to be true, and sooner rather than later.

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Old 04-21-2016, 12:44 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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You have to build your NBA team around the star talent that you do have, if you are trying to contend.

If the best player on your team doesn't want to play unproven / playoff-missing Hoiball, then its not a match. And talent is king in the NBA.

They can (and have) find D leaguers to do whatever Freddy wants. That team won't win anything of note.
This I generally agree with. Talent is king in the NBA, and it seems to make a lot more sense to try to mold your coaching to your talent than your talent to the coaching.

It's what makes Pop the best coach in the league. He can tailor a system to the resources he has.
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Old 04-21-2016, 01:53 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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So, at that point, you have to assess whether he's capable of being second fiddle to another player or not. Many guys feel they must be "the guy" on a team, even if they won't win. That's not the kind of guy you want. As you would say, "welcome to the NBA." So sure, Jimmy is the undisputed best player of this team, but the goal is for that not to be true, and sooner rather than later.
Under Thibs, Jimmy was a super effective player on a top NBA team.

Under this GarPax / Hoiball mess, well, not much is looking all that great. Butler still had a great year, made the all-star team and further established himself as one of the best players in the league.

I don't see any evidence that Jimmy would have a hard time deferring to a 1A. This wasn't a game changing issue when Thibs was the leader. A bit of tension, sure, many great teams have some of that especially when a new young gun is emerging, but the Bulls were the #3 seed in the east last year with the same roster that missed the playoffs under GarPaxBerg.

From the Bulls perspective, they should focus on getting that 1A and worry about the rest later.

Butler is a great NBA player. GarPax are looking like a couple of schmucks at this point and Hoiberg is like a deer in the headlights.

Butler is easily the top asset on this team. If the Bulls decide to blow it up for lotto picks, well, that's their decision. They better hope and pray that Uncle Jerry gets another hot tip on a great coach and that the lotto balls bounce their way and that they make sound picks (was it gar or was it the scouting team?) in order to get back to where the Bulls were a couple years ago.

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Old 04-21-2016, 01:56 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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This I generally agree with. Talent is king in the NBA, and it seems to make a lot more sense to try to mold your coaching to your talent than your talent to the coaching.

It's what makes Pop the best coach in the league. He can tailor a system to the resources he has.
Thibs as well. He turned Joakim Noah into an all-NBA 1st teamer after all after adjusting the offense to suit his skill set. That was one of the most impressive coaching performances I have seen.

Thibs is a super nimble coach who gets the most out of his players for many reasons, one of them changing his offensive sets to fit his personnel.

Sad for Bulls fans to this point that they are choosing to go with this unproven Hoiball and perhaps making major personnel moves based on it.
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Old 04-21-2016, 02:53 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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I would take issue with the notion that isoball has been effective. It's been great for Jimmy's stat line. However, the last two seasons, in which Jimmy's iso game reached its prominence, is exactly when the Bulls have gone off the rails. Now, that may well be due to injuries, guys getting older, internal dysfunction, etc., but there hasn't been a correlation, let alone causation, of isoball working well for this team.

I do agree that Jimmy is just feeling his oats and it may all level out. He's a guy who has never been expected to be a star player. He didn't come up through high school and college with a big pedigree, anticipation, etc. So, he's getting his first taste of being "the guy." The way he's handled it has obviously caused some friction. But the old guard will be gone soon enough, so I'm not in any hurry to get him out of town due to the discord. I also don't believe he's untouchable.
stats don't lie, the bulls are better on both sides of the ball when butler is out there , the team may be on a downshift but it would be worse, a lot worse if butler had lets say decided to be minor league baseball player like MJ a couple of decades ago instead of subjecting us all to his brand of emerging leadership/making himself into a max player over the last couple of years.

and personally I don't really have a problem with butler nor that he feels the need to be the man , somebody has to try and lead this team and its usually best if that guy is the team's best player ....

but at the same time you have to be logical is a jimmy-rose-mirotic led offense going to capable of anything significant in the near future ?

my guess is no

and the days of the bulls being a defensive juggernaut seem over

its time to rebuild .
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Old 04-21-2016, 02:59 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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You have to build your NBA team around the star talent that you do have, if you are trying to contend.

If the best player on your team doesn't want to play unproven / playoff-missing Hoiball, then its not a match. And talent is king in the NBA.

They can (and have) find D leaguers to do whatever Freddy wants. That team won't win anything of note.
even Jordan had to be convinced to go all in on the triangle and he had phil jax and tex winter on the coaching staff .

hoiberg in my opinion has to be in charge , jimmy is no LeBron you cant have him deciding what offense to run and how much to run it , he isnt so good that he can iso offense you to a 60 win season

hoiberg's big mistake was giving in , the more jimmy did his own thing the more minutes he got when it should have gone the other way

in other words jimmy butler was right freddy should have "coached harder"
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Old 04-21-2016, 04:09 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Re: Bulls Dysfunction

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in other words jimmy butler was right freddy should have "coached harder"
If a NBA head coach can't engender the respect and inspire the players and lead, well, that's a weak NBA coach.

Is Butler just a knucklehead? No, not under Thibs at least.

Under GarPaxBerg a lot of things went south in a hurry.

Is Gasol a rotten player? No, he's a multi time all-star (including last season) and a NBA champion.

Is Butler a problem? No, he's a 2 time all-star and one of the best 2 way players in the league.

What is Hoiberg? Why does it matter, other than that is who our weak front office decided would be their boy? So far, he's a weak NBA coach whose team became much worse once he took it over.
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