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Old 03-17-2013, 07:32 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

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What do people think of him? I can't help it, I think he's great. To me he's in the same mold as a Ricky Rubio.
There is times he tries to hard to score. He needs to stop that and do what he does best use his size and pass the ball
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:35 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

I agree, he is not a player without flaws that's for sure. His passing ability is so great though, I think he's a guy people will enjoy playing with at the next level.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

To me he's completely undraftable in the lottery. His shot is so bad that it undermines everything he does well.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:48 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

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To me he's completely undraftable in the lottery. His shot is so bad that it undermines everything he does well.
his size,passing and defense > his shot. his shot can be fixes with NBA coaches/work/veteran team mates
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:06 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

He runs the pick and roll better than most college point guards and is a good passer, but he's not a virtuoso. He is still constantly getting in trouble by leaving his feet. His shot has regressed and he isn't finishing at the rim anymore. His assist numbers went up in the big east tournament because Southerland went blazing hot from the three point line.

How many Syracuse players have looked good defensively in college and then struggled in the NBA? Every single one of them ever? Boeheim's zone does not prepare guys to be NBA players.

I think he's played his way out of the top 10. He will go somewhere where he fits but nobody is going to try to fit themselves to him like it looked like they would a couple months ago.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:18 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

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To me he's completely undraftable in the lottery. His shot is so bad that it undermines everything he does well.
Most years I'd agree with you. But this draft is pretty bad. I'd certainly take Marcus Smart over MCW, but really, outside McLemore and Muhammad, we're just discussing roleplayers of varying quality. I mean we're discussing a Larry Sanders type guy as the #3 pick. And it goes downhill rapidly from there.

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He runs the pick and roll better than most college point guards and is a good passer, but he's not a virtuoso. He is still constantly getting in trouble by leaving his feet. His shot has regressed and he isn't finishing at the rim anymore. His assist numbers went up in the big east tournament because Southerland went blazing hot from the three point line.

How many Syracuse players have looked good defensively in college and then struggled in the NBA? Every single one of them ever? Boeheim's zone does not prepare guys to be NBA players.

I think he's played his way out of the top 10. He will go somewhere where he fits but nobody is going to try to fit themselves to him like it looked like they would a couple months ago.
I agree with most of your evaluation of his struggles this year, but this is one of those drafts that I'm not comfortable projecting outside the top three. I mean Vic Oladipo, who still looks like a roleplayer level talent to my eyes, is likely going mid lottery (and I will grant that he's really improved since last year and may have enough growth left in his game to justify the choice) and guys like Mason Plumlee are getting lottery buzz. Right now I have Marcus Smart #4 on my board with Zeller at #5. And after that I think it's a crapshoot. He could go anywhere from 6-20 and I wouldn't be the least surprised.

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:51 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

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his size,passing and defense > his shot. his shot can be fixes with NBA coaches/work/veteran team mates
Nope. That never happens. His defense isn't as great as you're making it out either. Lot of Shaun Livingston in this one.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:55 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

Shots get "fixed" all the time in the NBA. The first few that leap to mind are Brent Barry, Tony Parker, Lebron James, Jason Kidd, Kurt Thomas, Derrick Rose, and Vince Carter. That it is a very valid thing.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:59 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

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Nope. That never happens. His defense isn't as great as you're making it out either. Lot of Shaun Livingston in this one.
Shaun Livingston was a quality player before his career altering injury.

Again, my comparison is Ricky Rubio. Doesn't have a pretty shot, isn't a super shooter off of the dribble, but has good body control around the rim, great size for the PG spot, and is a creative passer. Is able to nab a couple steals without being an elite defender as well. The racial difference aside, I think they can play a similar style of basketball.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:09 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

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Shots get "fixed" all the time in the NBA. The first few that leap to mind are Brent Barry, Tony Parker, Lebron James, Jason Kidd, Kurt Thomas, Derrick Rose, and Vince Carter. That it is a very valid thing.
Gonna ignore Kurt Thomas, that's ridiculous. Brent Barry shot 41% from 3 his rookie year. Tony Parker shot better from 3 his first two seasons than his career average and shot a LOT more back then. Kidd never fixed his shot, he was just as good as a rookie as he is now. Vince Carter was a better shooter as a young player than any other time in his career. LeBron has improved... in his 10th season and is one of the hardest working players in the league. Rose has improved and he IS the hardest working player in the league; he was also a significantly better shooter in college than Williams is now.

There are waaaaay more PGs who never learned to shoot than those cherry picked (incorrect) superstars that you posted too. I need to see SOMETHING in college before I think he'll be able to shoot in the pros. I thought Conley could develop a shot.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:23 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

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Nope. That never happens. His defense isn't as great as you're making it out either. Lot of Shaun Livingston in this one.
Your insane to think that. The guy is 20 he will learn to shoot better. He got thing you cant teach and do you even watch him? His defense is great he plays really well one on one and works his long arms into passing lanes.

Seriously you are just hating to hate you have no idea wth your talking about. Epically with his defense
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:27 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Question Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

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Gonna ignore Kurt Thomas, that's ridiculous. Brent Barry shot 41% from 3 his rookie year. Tony Parker shot better from 3 his first two seasons than his career average and shot a LOT more back then. Kidd never fixed his shot, he was just as good as a rookie as he is now. Vince Carter was a better shooter as a young player than any other time in his career. LeBron has improved... in his 10th season and is one of the hardest working players in the league. Rose has improved and he IS the hardest working player in the league; he was also a significantly better shooter in college than Williams is now.

There are waaaaay more PGs who never learned to shoot than those cherry picked (incorrect) superstars that you posted too. I need to see SOMETHING in college before I think he'll be able to shoot in the pros. I thought Conley could develop a shot.
Every single one of my examples is 100% valid, and there are hundreds more where those came from. You can't just look at raw percentages without considering volume and team role. I'm surprised how weak that argument was. Vince was a better shooter as a young player than any other time? Are you kidding me? Did you see him shoot in college? His shot was ugly until he got to Toronto.
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:26 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

I don't think Carter-Williams shot is unsalvageable, he just needs reps which the NBA is good for. It's not like he's Aaron Craft or Rondo with noticeable mechanical problems. Lots of guys learn to shoot in the NBA; Kawhi Leonard and Dorrell Wright being more recent examples. Lots of guys don't as well. It's not at all unreasonable to hope he improves, but it's still only hope.

I don't get the Rubio comparison. Some guys get a lot of assists because they have good vision and a willingness to make the plays that are there. That's Carter-Williams. Rubio is a different thing entirely. He has a physical passing talent that goes beyond assist numbers; the ability to put the ball through very difficult windows similar to Jason Kidd and Lebron. Carter-Williams does most of his work in transition and doesn't have that kind of half-court creativity.
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:26 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

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Every single one of my examples is 100% valid, and there are hundreds more where those came from. You can't just look at raw percentages without considering volume and team role. I'm surprised how weak that argument was. Vince was a better shooter as a young player than any other time? Are you kidding me? Did you see him shoot in college? His shot was ugly until he got to Toronto.
Yep. I'm not sure about Barry, but all the others went from poor shooters to adequate or very good. MCW's shot isn't great, but it's possible he improves with enough work. Shooting coaches are everywhere and any team that invests $8-10 million in this guy is going to make sure he learns how to shoot.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:03 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams - PG - Syracuse

10 years of First Round Point Guards drafted out of College

First number is 2pt% and second number is 3pt% taken from the year before they were drafted. I bolded all the players who were sub 45% from 2 or sub 30% from 3 (Carter-Williams is both)

Damian Lillard 51/40
Kendall Marshall 52/35
Marquis Teague 43/32
Kyrie Irving 56/46
Brandon Knight 46/37
Kemba Walker 47/33
Norris Cole 47/34
Cory Joseph 42/41
John Wall 50/32
Greivis Vasquez 47/35
Jonny Flynn 52/31
Ty Lawson 57/47
Jeff Teague 50/44
Eric Maynor 51/36
Darren Collison 55/39
Derrick Rose 52/33
Russell Westbrook 49/33
DJ Augustin 47/38
George Hill 58/45
Mike Conley 57/30
Acie Law 51/45
Javaris Crittenton 48/35
Aaron Brooks 50/40
Rajon Rondo 54/27
Marcus Williams 41/40
Kyle Lowry 46/44
Jordan Farmar 47/33
Deron Williams 49/36
Chris Paul 44/47
Ray Felton 46/44
Jarrett Jack 54/44
Devin Harris 54/37
Jameer Nelson 52/39
TJ Ford 42/26
Marcus Banks 58/33
Luke Ridnour 47/38

Draw your own conclusions. Mine are that he is the worst shooting PG out of college since TJ Ford. Yes, worse than Rondo.
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