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Old 01-17-2011, 01:52 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

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Originally Posted by leidout View Post
The 2011 Clippers pick will probably not be top ten by the end of the season, unless they get extremely lucky with the ping pong balls. They've been winning .667 of their games since mid-December and only appear to be getting better. So being patient just means wasted time for Griffin & Gordon. These guys are ready to compete at the top level right now.
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However, my only concern with this is approach is this...can we afford to be patient given that Griffin and Gordon will possibly base their decision to sign an extension on the help that was brought in?
While it's true the Clips are probably going to work their way out of the top(bottom?) ten in the draft, I have a very difficult time believing that they'll win 2/3's of their games the rest of the way out. While Griffin and Gordon may be ready to compete in the playoffs, the rest of the team isn't even close to that level.

In response to the idea that the team has to be competitive right away I'll simply point to the divergent approaches taken by the Cavs and Thunder in building around young superstars. Every move the Cavs made after drafting Lebron was purely for the here and now out of the fear that he'd leave, and they were never able to put together a truly quality supporting cast because there's only so much you can do with veterans available at a discount. The first two years the Sonics/Thunder took the approach that it was okay to be awful as long as every move made sense long-term, and they stockpiled young talent and cap flexibility. Everything came together in year three when they just made it into the playoffs as the eighth seed, and only this year are they really considered one of the top clubs in their conference.

Eric Gordon is going into restricted free agency in the summer of 2012 and Blake will be a restricted free agent the summer after, meaning they can't really "get away" until the summers of 2013 and 2014, respectively, when they'd be unrestricted free agents. The Clippers front office has plenty of time to make sure that whatever deal they make is the right long-term move and not just the best one available right now. Iguodala is the right kind of idea, but I don't know that a guy with a suspect outside shot(who's also a little undersized for the 3) is the best they can do. However, I don't like the idea of Gerald Wallace at all. The guy's turning 29 this summer, isn't much of a shooter, and has spent his career playing a style of ball that'll lead to him slowing significantly as he nears and rounds 30. Look at the season-by-season stats of Shawn Marion, a similar type of player, and how he's steadily declined starting in the 07-08 season, when was......29 years old.
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Old 01-17-2011, 07:07 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

The thunder have our 1st round pick this year right because of Eric Bledsoe? Is it protected?
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Old 01-17-2011, 07:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

Baron is the true case of the gift and the curse. When motivated, he does wonderful things on the court UNFORTUNATELY you just dont know how long he'll stay motivated or when he'll get into that mood. Its one of the reasons why he keeps getting traded even though he's been an integral part of some playoff teams. Now the Clips are winning again and it might look smart to keep him, but then that's a pretty risky move.



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Old 01-17-2011, 08:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

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The thunder have our 1st round pick this year right because of Eric Bledsoe? Is it protected?
The Thunder have the rights to the Clippers 2012 draft pick, with top 10 protection. However, I'm sure the hope is they'll be rounding into shape as a perennial playoff team next year, so the protection shouldn't be activated unless something drastic happens. The Clips also have the Wolves unprotected pick in that draft, so they'll have a first round pick that year unless Minny's is given away in a future trade.
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Old 01-17-2011, 08:43 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

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While it's true the Clips are probably going to work their way out of the top(bottom?) ten in the draft, I have a very difficult time believing that they'll win 2/3's of their games the rest of the way out. While Griffin and Gordon may be ready to compete in the playoffs, the rest of the team isn't even close to that level.

In response to the idea that the team has to be competitive right away I'll simply point to the divergent approaches taken by the Cavs and Thunder in building around young superstars. Every move the Cavs made after drafting Lebron was purely for the here and now out of the fear that he'd leave, and they were never able to put together a truly quality supporting cast because there's only so much you can do with veterans available at a discount. The first two years the Sonics/Thunder took the approach that it was okay to be awful as long as every move made sense long-term, and they stockpiled young talent and cap flexibility. Everything came together in year three when they just made it into the playoffs as the eighth seed, and only this year are they really considered one of the top clubs in their conference.

Eric Gordon is going into restricted free agency in the summer of 2012 and Blake will be a restricted free agent the summer after, meaning they can't really "get away" until the summers of 2013 and 2014, respectively, when they'd be unrestricted free agents. The Clippers front office has plenty of time to make sure that whatever deal they make is the right long-term move and not just the best one available right now. Iguodala is the right kind of idea, but I don't know that a guy with a suspect outside shot(who's also a little undersized for the 3) is the best they can do. However, I don't like the idea of Gerald Wallace at all. The guy's turning 29 this summer, isn't much of a shooter, and has spent his career playing a style of ball that'll lead to him slowing significantly as he nears and rounds 30. Look at the season-by-season stats of Shawn Marion, a similar type of player, and how he's steadily declined starting in the 07-08 season, when was......29 years old.
You make a lot of good points. Winning .667 of the remaining games is probably unlikely, but staying around .500 seems well within reason. Bledsoe & Jordan aren't ready for the playoffs yet, but I think a solid 25+ minutes per game will let them grow at the fastest rate possible. With Baron playing, Bledsoe isn't getting enough minutes. Kaman is just deadweight at the moment.

While you're right about the Cavs totally screwing up, they made their mistakes by trading for over the hill guys & slightly above average players. The Thunder have taken a different path and it's working out well, but they really didn't have assets like Baron and Kaman to start with. If they did, they probably would be even better than they are now. There is more than one path to the championship!

Iguodala on the Clippers would only be a 3rd scorer, at best. He's still young, athletic, very durable and even with a poor outside shot, his contributions to the team far outweigh his deficiencies. As for Wallace, you're probably right, he's taken an absolute beating throughout his career and can only slow down.

While i probably sound like i want to make a trade just for the hell of it. It really needs to be the right move, guys like Chauncey Billups are probably available, but that's just not the right move at all (even though this is exactly the kind of a move a Lebron-era Cavs team would make).
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Old 01-17-2011, 08:45 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

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Originally Posted by HB View Post
Baron is the true case of the gift and the curse. When motivated, he does wonderful things on the court UNFORTUNATELY you just dont know how long he'll stay motivated or when he'll get into that mood. Its one of the reasons why he keeps getting traded even though he's been an integral part of some playoff teams. Now the Clips are winning again and it might look smart to keep him, but then that's a pretty risky move.
Agreed, I wish I could trust Baron to keep playing at this level, but he's fooled us on multiple occasions before.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:19 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

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While you're right about the Cavs totally screwing up, they made their mistakes by trading for over the hill guys & slightly above average players. The Thunder have taken a different path and it's working out well, but they really didn't have assets like Baron and Kaman to start with. If they did, they probably would be even better than they are now. There is more than one path to the championship!
They did have big assets to work with, and work they did. Ray Allen was still there and Rashard Lewis was a free agent that they had rights to that summer. Allen was turned into Jeff Green and additional assets, while Rashard was signed and traded for a large traded player exception, which eventually netted Kurt Thomas and two first round picks(which eventually netted Serge Ibaka and Cole Aldrich) in exchange for a second rounder, and Thomas was later flipped to San An for an additional first round pick. The "gotta win now!" approach would have led to Allen never being traded and Lewis being retained on that ungodly contract, resulting in a mismatched timeline where Lewis and Ray being to(in Lewis' case fully) break down right as Durant becomes a top player in the league. I think we can both agree the path they took instead was far better.



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Iguodala on the Clippers would only be a 3rd scorer, at best. He's still young, athletic, very durable and even with a poor outside shot, his contributions to the team far outweigh his deficiencies. As for Wallace, you're probably right, he's taken an absolute beating throughout his career and can only slow down.
I don't hate the idea of Iguodala, but I also don't think he's a home-run either, and the Clips are only going to get one shot at this. The guy I'm really intrigued by, should he keep up his current level of production for a whole season, is Mike Beasely. He's only 22, like much of the young core, is a better outside shooter, and is showing he can capably play small forward. Additionally, he's got the length to bother Kevin Durant, while the (maybe) 6-6 Iguodala runs a serious risk of simply being shot over. Come draft night 2011, I think the Wolves would be hard pressed to pass up something along the lines of Kaman and his expiring, Aminu, whoever the Clips draft for the Wolves, and Minny's own 2012 pick back in exchange for Beasely and another player. It's overpaying a bit, but I think he's the best fit.
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:11 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

How soon we forget Kaman was in the All Star game just recently. Kaman does all that Jordan does...and can SCORE too ! He's not the smartest guy but, he plays hard every minute. And can you tell me what you do if/when Jordan gets hurt ?? True centers get hurt all the time: Perkins, Yao, RLopez, Noah, Varejao, etc... You keep them both and switch them out so both stay fresh. And you have real depth at that position.

As bad as Baron can be, you are stuck with him. So you may as well use him. He still have knowledge of the game that he can teach Bledsoe. You don't want a team that's too young like the Kings, where there is no maturity whatsoever on that roster.

The Clips are acutally on a good run here. Don't ruin it with high paid vets who get hurt and ruin everything. Or leave you with nothing. Aminu is playing well and is cheap, you keep him around. I don't remember Iguodala winning anything anywhere. What's so great about him ? Better to be patient and get another solid young player I think.
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:40 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

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How soon we forget Kaman was in the All Star game just recently. Kaman does all that Jordan does...and can SCORE too ! He's not the smartest guy but, he plays hard every minute. And can you tell me what you do if/when Jordan gets hurt ?? True centers get hurt all the time: Perkins, Yao, RLopez, Noah, Varejao, etc... You keep them both and switch them out so both stay fresh. And you have real depth at that position.
The problem with Kaman is that he's turning 29 this season and has a history of getting hurt. He's got more value as an expiring in trade for a young potential all-star than he does as a 31-32 year old center when the rest of the roster is ready to make a real run at the Finals.
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

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They did have big assets to work with, and work they did. Ray Allen was still there and Rashard Lewis was a free agent that they had rights to that summer. Allen was turned into Jeff Green and additional assets, while Rashard was signed and traded for a large traded player exception, which eventually netted Kurt Thomas and two first round picks(which eventually netted Serge Ibaka and Cole Aldrich) in exchange for a second rounder, and Thomas was later flipped to San An for an additional first round pick. The "gotta win now!" approach would have led to Allen never being traded and Lewis being retained on that ungodly contract, resulting in a mismatched timeline where Lewis and Ray being to(in Lewis' case fully) break down right as Durant becomes a top player in the league. I think we can both agree the path they took instead was far better.

I don't hate the idea of Iguodala, but I also don't think he's a home-run either, and the Clips are only going to get one shot at this. The guy I'm really intrigued by, should he keep up his current level of production for a whole season, is Mike Beasely. He's only 22, like much of the young core, is a better outside shooter, and is showing he can capably play small forward. Additionally, he's got the length to bother Kevin Durant, while the (maybe) 6-6 Iguodala runs a serious risk of simply being shot over. Come draft night 2011, I think the Wolves would be hard pressed to pass up something along the lines of Kaman and his expiring, Aminu, whoever the Clips draft for the Wolves, and Minny's own 2012 pick back in exchange for Beasely and another player. It's overpaying a bit, but I think he's the best fit.
Yep, the Thunder did make the right decision for sure, but it's not quite the same situation. They traded the old guys to pair up Durant & Green and decided to re-build from there. While the Clippers already have Griffin & Gordon and still have Baron & Kaman to use as trade assets. It'd be more similar if the Thunder had Durant, Green, Allen & Lewis at the same time... which gives you an even better opportunity. Anyways, it's just minor details...

The main reason I like Iguodala is because of his ability to defend, pass & rebound. His shooting leaves a lot to be desired, but he'd get a lot more wide open shots on the clippers with guys often doubling Griffin. There are of course a lot of guys who could fit the bill, but I'm limiting my options to guys that are rumored to be shopped.

As for Beaseley, he could be a very good fit as well, but I think wing defense outweighs offense at the moment, since a lot playoff teams in the West have superior scorers at the SF spot (Durant, Jefferson, Gay, Odom, etc). Although if we were making a trade with Minnesota, I'd throw the kitchen sink in to get Kevin Love... they'd still have to be smoking the same stuff from when they traded KG away though!
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:28 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: What to do about Baron & Kaman?

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Originally Posted by LA68 View Post
How soon we forget Kaman was in the All Star game just recently. Kaman does all that Jordan does...and can SCORE too ! He's not the smartest guy but, he plays hard every minute. And can you tell me what you do if/when Jordan gets hurt ?? True centers get hurt all the time: Perkins, Yao, RLopez, Noah, Varejao, etc... You keep them both and switch them out so both stay fresh. And you have real depth at that position.

As bad as Baron can be, you are stuck with him. So you may as well use him. He still have knowledge of the game that he can teach Bledsoe. You don't want a team that's too young like the Kings, where there is no maturity whatsoever on that roster.

The Clips are acutally on a good run here. Don't ruin it with high paid vets who get hurt and ruin everything. Or leave you with nothing. Aminu is playing well and is cheap, you keep him around. I don't remember Iguodala winning anything anywhere. What's so great about him ? Better to be patient and get another solid young player I think.
Kaman did that one year. The rest of his career he's looked like a guy who couldn't put his skills together into a cohesive package. If Jordan gets hurt... history says Kaman isn't going to be there to be relied upon.

Baron has a history of putting in a poor effort, he's got all the knowledge and skill in the world, but whenever he falls back into a rut it can be cancerous for a young team.

Baron & Kaman are high paid vets who get hurt & ruin things... dunno why you'd think otherwise. And Iguodala has led his team to the playoffs twice in the last few years, you can't say the same about Baron or Kaman during their tenure with the Clippers (and they had a lot more talent). He's also only 26 years old and missed 6 games his whole NBA career!
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