Durant Legacy - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums
BasketballForum.com is the premier basketball Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
User Tag List

Like Tree2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2014, 08:05 AM   #1 (permalink)
6th Man
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 351
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Durant Legacy

For the most part - I think the top three sf's ever are LBJ, Bird and Dr J. Do you think that Durant will ever suprass any of the 3?

Maybe Dr J but don't think he'll surpass LBJ or Bird. And thus far LBJ has been flat-out better.
hoopfan101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-09-2014, 11:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
Legend
 
PauloCatarino's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Braga, Portugal
Posts: 14,165
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopfan101 View Post
For the most part - I think the top three sf's ever are LBJ, Bird and Dr J. Do you think that Durant will ever suprass any of the 3?

Maybe Dr J but don't think he'll surpass LBJ or Bird. And thus far LBJ has been flat-out better.
Well, i say it's pretty clear that, barring injury, Kevin Durant will surpass Dr. J pretty soon.
Durant is already (age 25) one of the greatest scorers ever, MVP winner, perennial All-NBAer, led the league in scoring 4 times, and led his team to deep playoff runs.
In fact, i would say it's arguable that Durant is, as of right now, at Doc's (and Baylor's, ,and Hondo's) level.

About Bird and LBJ, only if Durant continues his (insane) production AND wins multiple championships (and LBJ comes short, of course).
I'd say that Durant is at THAT stratospheric level that championships won will make all the difference comparing his career to other all-time greats.
PauloCatarino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2014, 02:01 PM   #3 (permalink)
6th Man
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 351
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by PauloCatarino View Post
Well, i say it's pretty clear that, barring injury, Kevin Durant will surpass Dr. J pretty soon.
Durant is already (age 25) one of the greatest scorers ever, MVP winner, perennial All-NBAer, led the league in scoring 4 times, and led his team to deep playoff runs.
In fact, i would say it's arguable that Durant is, as of right now, at Doc's (and Baylor's, ,and Hondo's) level.

About Bird and LBJ, only if Durant continues his (insane) production AND wins multiple championships (and LBJ comes short, of course).
I'd say that Durant is at THAT stratospheric level that championships won will make all the difference comparing his career to other all-time greats.
Yeah I supose you're right. I give slight edge to DR J right now but it's inevitable he'll surpass him - and as you suggest --some may think he already has.

It doesn't look good for him though to break into Bird/LBJ tier.
hoopfan101 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Old 08-09-2014, 06:21 PM   #4 (permalink)
Legend
 
e-monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,500
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1370 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

people here seem to not know much about Doc

3 time ABA MVP, 1 time NBA MVP, 9 time All ABA/NBA 1st teamer, 3 titles, 16 time all star, one of only 5 players ever to average 2 steals and 2 blocks per game

Durant may be on his way to achieving more than that but let's not pretend it's inevitable or just around the corner or whatever
e-monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2014, 06:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
Legend
 
PauloCatarino's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Braga, Portugal
Posts: 14,165
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-monk View Post
people here seem to not know much about Doc

3 time ABA MVP, 1 time NBA MVP, 9 time All ABA/NBA 1st teamer, 3 titles, 16 time all star, one of only 5 players ever to average 2 steals and 2 blocks per game

Durant may be on his way to achieving more than that but let's not pretend it's inevitable or just around the corner or whatever
I said Durant will surpass Dr. J "pretty soon" and that it's arguable that he is already at Doc's level.
Do you disagree? Because of Erving's ABA career? A league who had players like Gilmore, Cunningham and McGinnis winning MVPs? Meh. The ABA was what it was: a minor league. Don't put much weight in it. Players like Dr. J and McGinnis had drops of, like 6, 7ppg when they joined the Big League and before adapting (more in Dr. Js case).

Julius Erving was a stud, obviously, but as an offensive player RIGHT NOW Durant blows him out of the water. It's no contest, really.
Oh, and i'll trade your 2stls/2blks season (in the ABA) with Durant's 32/7/5 with a TS% of .635 and a PER of 29.8 (wich, again, obliterates anything Dr. J did IN THE NBA).
PauloCatarino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2014, 07:57 PM   #6 (permalink)
Legend
 
e-monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,500
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1370 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

yes I disagree (titles, MVP awards about 12 more allstar game appearances etc, that's a lot of achieving to do before we start comparing legacies)

and FYI in the first post merger season there were 5 former ABA players on the All NBA teams and 9 former ABA players in the All Star game - seems like you need to study up on the ABA

Last edited by e-monk; 08-09-2014 at 08:03 PM.
e-monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 05:34 AM   #7 (permalink)
Legend
 
PauloCatarino's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Braga, Portugal
Posts: 14,165
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-monk View Post
yes I disagree (titles, MVP awards about 12 more allstar game appearances etc, that's a lot of achieving to do before we start comparing legacies)

and FYI in the first post merger season there were 5 former ABA players on the All NBA teams and 9 former ABA players in the All Star game - seems like you need to study up on the ABA
Whatever, man. If you have Dr. J at another level than Durant due to his ABA years, well, more power to you.
Obviously to me, the ABA was the lesser team. Erving himself, who never scored less than 27ppg in the ABA, dropped his production to 21.6ppg (-8ppg than the previous season) for some reason. Reason being tougher competition.
Off course, the ABA had his great players (if it wasn't the case, what would be the interest of merging?), but overall? Meh:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...time_team.html
PauloCatarino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 08:56 AM   #8 (permalink)
Legend
 
e-monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,500
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1370 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by PauloCatarino View Post
Erving himself, who never scored less than 27ppg in the ABA, dropped his production to 21.6ppg (-8ppg than the previous season) for some reason. Reason being tougher competition.
Paulo you already touched on this even mentioning "the reason" by name in a prior post

yes both Doc and George McGinnis's ppg dropped in their first NBA seasons

do you know why?

Doc and McGinnis went from being clear cut alphas on the Nets and Pacers to joining forces (and having to share the ball) on the 76ers - in their first NBA season together McGinnis took 400 less attempts and Doc took 500 less attempts than they had taken in the previous season (and this doesn't even take into account that also had to share the ball with Lloyd Free and Doug Collins)

and do you know what Doc and McGinnis teamed up to do in their first season in the NBA? lead their team all the way to the finals (all that competition made things real tough on them eh?)
e-monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 10:01 AM   #9 (permalink)
Legend
 
PauloCatarino's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Braga, Portugal
Posts: 14,165
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-monk View Post
Paulo you already touched on this even mentioning "the reason" by name in a prior post

yes both Doc and George McGinnis's ppg dropped in their first NBA seasons

do you know why?

Doc and McGinnis went from being clear cut alphas on the Nets and Pacers to joining forces (and having to share the ball) on the 76ers - in their first NBA season together McGinnis took 400 less attempts and Doc took 500 less attempts than they had taken in the previous season (and this doesn't even take into account that also had to share the ball with Lloyd Free and Doug Collins)

and do you know what Doc and McGinnis teamed up to do in their first season in the NBA? lead their team all the way to the finals (all that competition made things real tough on them eh?)
Yes. That "tougher competition" made Ervin's former outer-wordly stats (in the ABA) adjust.
As comparison to losing in the Finals againts the Blazers (who had Walton and Mo) just take a look at Doc's competition for, say, the 1974 ABA Championship (the season Doc averaged the 2/2 you mentioned, along with 27/10/5): the Utah Stars of Willie Wize, Ron Boone, Jimmy Jones and Zelmo Beatty...

Dude, i'm not saying Julius freaking Erving was NOT one of the greatest players who ever played. He was. But i don't put much weight in ABA's career. NOT that they didn't have great players who carved themselves great careers after the merger. But talent-wise overall, it WAS an inferior league.

What i AM saying is that Kevin Durant is arguably at Ervin's level and will (barring injuries) pass him.
I don't think it's disputable that Durant is already a better scorer than Julius. And a CONSISTENT better scorer (over 27.5ppg for 5 straight seasons, in excelent percentages). He may not be as well-rounded as Julius (who WAS a better defender), but his last 2 seasons of +4.5apg show he is not a one-dimentional player (as in, gunner).
Durant has already (age 25) won an MVP award over a player who is a shoe-in for All-time Top10.
I think it's safe to say that Kevin Durant, in the next two seasons, will again be the top scorer (or damn close) in the league, a MVP Top-2 finisher while leading his team to deep playoff runs. THEN (that's why i said "pretty soon") it won't take winning championships (IMHO) to argue Durant having a better career then Julius (peak-wise, i don't think an argument can be made for Julius).

Julius Erving was a great basketball player. He belongs in the third echelon (sp?) of greatest of the greats (i'd go (in no particular order) first: Wilt, Magic, Jordan, Russell, Kareem; second: Shaq, Duncan, Oscar, West, Hakeem, Kobe, Lebron, etc.). I do think Durant is already in that vicinity.
PauloCatarino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 10:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
Curse of the Sonics
Photobucket
 
Sir Patchwork's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oklahoma City
Age: 34
Posts: 20,794
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1383 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

I think he can get into the Bird class by sustaining his current prime. It's unlikely he ever gets to the LeBron level because of the defensive side of things. It's unlikely that Durant ever becomes the dominant and versatile defender that LeBron has been for most of his prime.

All Dr. J has on him at this point is years. You could argue that Durant already has 2-3 years better than Erving's best NBA seasons, and Durant is only 25. He has already surpassed Erving's prime, so I think saying it's a matter of time before he accomplishes more is fair (barring injuries).
Sir Patchwork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 11:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
Player
 
Pyrex's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 721
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Durants career will be something like if Tracy Mcgrady stayed healthy, puts up crazy stats but never wins a ring. His lack of defense and lack of alpha-dog won't put him into Lebron and Bird category but there will be debate between him and Dr.J
Pyrex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 05:49 PM   #12 (permalink)
6th Man
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 351
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork View Post
I think he can get into the Bird class by sustaining his current prime. It's unlikely he ever gets to the LeBron level because of the defensive side of things. It's unlikely that Durant ever becomes the dominant and versatile defender that LeBron has been for most of his prime.

All Dr. J has on him at this point is years. You could argue that Durant already has 2-3 years better than Erving's best NBA seasons, and Durant is only 25. He has already surpassed Erving's prime, so I think saying it's a matter of time before he accomplishes more is fair (barring injuries).
I think he has to do much more than "sustain" to catch Bird. IMO he has to become a much better passer and learn how to low post. He doesn't have to be "Shaq."

Inevitably - he'll run into a defender that will force him to be more than just a 3pt shooter. He seems to have an issue with defenders than can get into his chest. His regular season beefed-up stats imo shouldn't jump over Bird whom had a low post game, and was both a low post threat and a tremendous passer- until Durant shows he can add this in the playoffs and have at least one big run where he is "unstoppable."

As a general rule to get into this Bird type of tier you can't be just a one-trick pony. IMO if he sustains just being a one-trick pony, he'll never get a title unless he is on some tremndously stacked team.
hoopfan101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2014, 02:11 PM   #13 (permalink)
Curse of the Sonics
Photobucket
 
Sir Patchwork's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oklahoma City
Age: 34
Posts: 20,794
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1383 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopfan101 View Post
I think he has to do much more than "sustain" to catch Bird. IMO he has to become a much better passer and learn how to low post. He doesn't have to be "Shaq."

Inevitably - he'll run into a defender that will force him to be more than just a 3pt shooter. He seems to have an issue with defenders than can get into his chest. His regular season beefed-up stats imo shouldn't jump over Bird whom had a low post game, and was both a low post threat and a tremendous passer- until Durant shows he can add this in the playoffs and have at least one big run where he is "unstoppable."

As a general rule to get into this Bird type of tier you can't be just a one-trick pony. IMO if he sustains just being a one-trick pony, he'll never get a title unless he is on some tremndously stacked team.
Durant isn't a one trick pony. A 32/7/6 statline is hardly one dimensional. If he stays in the 28-29 PER range through the next 5-7 years, like he has been the past two years, he'll be thought to be in the Bird class by the time he retires. People won't attribute that to the PER itself, but guys who play at that level for that long don't go unnoticed.
Sir Patchwork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2014, 05:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
6th Man
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 351
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork View Post
Durant isn't a one trick pony. A 32/7/6 statline is hardly one dimensional. If he stays in the 28-29 PER range through the next 5-7 years, like he has been the past two years, he'll be thought to be in the Bird class by the time he retires. People won't attribute that to the PER itself, but guys who play at that level for that long don't go unnoticed.
I don't agree. First off he is a 1trick-pony thus far when you compare him to all time greats like Bird. For a sf/pf averaging 7.4 in this- his best year it's okay but Bird's average was 10.

And they aren't even in the same league when it comes to passing. Bird's assist-to-turnovers is over 2:1 for his career.

SO yes- kd isn't a one-trick pony to many,many players- but when you compare him to all-time greats like Bird- he is.

ANd I don't agrre at all with your PER POV in terms of "weight.". You are puttign too much emphasis on this as you compare both.

Final point: Jerry West got an MVP even in defeat. Magic johnson wasn't stopped when he was still great but lost some of his quickness as he tangled with the 90-91 Bulls. Durant will become slapped down more and more if he doesn't show he is a beast in domiating the playoffs. Certainly 11-12 his Playoff STATS were fine. But we all know that he couldn't get open enough to get up enough shots.

Anyhow, his game other than scoring needs more than just PER. Bill Russell's PER isn't very good. But he is imo among top 4 players ever.
hoopfan101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2014, 06:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
Curse of the Sonics
Photobucket
 
Sir Patchwork's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oklahoma City
Age: 34
Posts: 20,794
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1383 Post(s)
Re: Durant Legacy

I'll just put it this way, Durant's first 7 seasons are as good or better than Bird's first 7 seasons statistically, and Bird came into the league more seasoned and experienced than a 19 year old Durant. We're comparing a 19-25 year old's production with a 23-29 year old's production, and it can be argued in Durant's favor. Durant is on pace to pass Larry Bird's career points total by the time he is 28 years old. That's not to say Durant a lot better than Bird or anything like that, just that Durant is doing special things that have him on pace to be in Bird's class by the time he is finished.

Personally, I don't factor in championships to my individual evaluations, but if you do, I can see how you'd have a tough time conceding. It's hard to win 1 championship let alone 3. It will be tough to match Bird in that regard, but that is a team accomplishment and not an individual accomplishment in my view.
Voyaging likes this.
Sir Patchwork is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:04 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2002 2013 BasketballBoards.net.