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Unless I'm missing something we've signed a 6'6" and (2) 6'7" players. That's pretty decent size. I don't believe in the idea of signing a Ryan Pierson/Pat Bergmann type just so the roster can say we've got a 6'10" player on it.

I only care about a "big" if they can play basketball and contribute. Sitting on the bench in a tie does nothing for me( this is the role many of our "bigs" have played recently) unless it's a coach.
 

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Unless I'm missing something we've signed a 6'6" and (2) 6'7" players. That's pretty decent size. I don't believe in the idea of signing a Ryan Pierson/Pat Bergmann type just so the roster can say we've got a 6'10" player on it.

I only care about a "big" if they can play basketball and contribute. Sitting on the bench in a tie does nothing for me( this is the role many of our "bigs" play) unless it's a coach.
Would it still be a tie if you put in Ryan Shields though?
 

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Unless I'm missing something we've signed a 6'6" and (2) 6'7" players. That's pretty decent size. I don't believe in the idea of signing a Ryan Pierson/Pat Bergmann type just so the roster can say we've got a 6'10" player on it.

I only care about a "big" if they can play basketball and contribute. Sitting on the bench in a tie does nothing for me( this is the role many of our "bigs" have played recently) unless it's a coach.
What I am suggesting is that UVM needs a rim protector/solid defender type big. So far UVM does not have that type of player.
 

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What I am suggesting is that UVM needs a rim protector/solid defender type big. So far UVM does not have that type of player.
True, but we didn't have a rim protector last season and that went...fine. Our two best defensive players were listed as 6'3" and 6'6"
 
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Unless I'm missing something we've signed a 6'6" and (2) 6'7" players. That's pretty decent size. I don't believe in the idea of signing a Ryan Pierson/Pat Bergmann type just so the roster can say we've got a 6'10" player on it.

I only care about a "big" if they can play basketball and contribute. Sitting on the bench in a tie does nothing for me( this is the role many of our "bigs" have played recently) unless it's a coach.
Yeah, I can't wait for the 5 man 3pt line circle jerk offense. Should be thrilling stuff. Pass...not open, Pass...not open, Pass.... not open, clock at 10, Pass....still not open, set pick for Penn...pray he can make a play. Rinse repeat, bang head on desk..
 
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True, but we didn't have a rim protector last season and that went...fine. Our two best defensive players were listed as 6'3" and 6'6"
I was thinking more about being more able to win a game or two against the high major programs. It seems it usually comes down to having some big bodies defend against guys that are 6'9" or bigger.
 

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When I look at the team for next year the biggest need is Scoring. We're losing a ton of it. Like people realize we're losing to going pro or graduation our top 4 scorers and 50ppg, right?

Scoring, then Size. If you can get both then that's amazing.
 
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When I look at the team for next year the biggest need is Scoring. We're losing a ton of it. Like people realize we're losing to going pro or graduation our top 4 scorers and 50ppg, right?

Scoring, then Size. If you can get both then that's amazing.
Think Kam Gibson, Finn, Deloney, Nick and Penn should be able to score enough points. The bigger loss is the consistency of Davis and Shungu.

However, I am not too worried. We always reload. Hoping for one more big body - but hey, if we don't get one we will have to rely on newcomers like Jorge Ochoa and Illeri. Perhaps DeMuth will surprise - wouldn't be the first time that a player persevered after struggling with injuries to contribute.

Lot of questions, but got to give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt. AT the very least, we are loaded at PG, SG and SF. Plus R. Duncan will likely be playing a lot of point forward. I think the Coaching staff will adjust so we can compete with what we have. Will be interesting. Plus maybe Lefebvre will come back - haven't heard of him getting many looks elsewhere and perhaps the lack of big men competing for min will entice him? I'd love to have him back and do think he could contribute and develop here.
 

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When I look at the team for next year the biggest need is Scoring. We're losing a ton of it. Like people realize we're losing to going pro or graduation our top 4 scorers and 50ppg, right?

Scoring, then Size. If you can get both then that's amazing.
There is PLENTY of outside and penetration offense on the current offense, and I'm not even accounting for Penn.

It's pretty clear that at UVM, at least under Becker, you have to earn your keys to the offense. Davis and Shungu leaving open up the door for Deloney, Robin, Sullivan, etc. I have zero concern about scoring against AE-level opponents. Just because the younger guys haven't had the opportunities of Davis and Shungu doesn't mean they aren't as capable.

IMO the Achilles heal of UVM basketball under Becker's tenure has always been size. And that's likely one of the reasons why that despite all the success over the last decade against AE and peer midmajors UVM hasn't pulled off a single true marquee upset (and likely why Becker is getting passed for A10 jobs).

The closest thing to an upset was probably the St John's game, but was that really a meaningful upset? A middling BE school that makes the tourney as an 11-seed play-in once-a-decade isn't remotely close to a much better-resourced ACC powerhouse (it's the Power 5, not Power 6).

The last big time upset I can think of was BC in the '06-07 season. Would UVM have been able to pull off that upset without Chris Holm? I say no. And I want to see another Chris Holm. You can always find skilled guards and outside scoring. Getting Chris Holm-types at the mid/low major level is a lot tougher and when you don't recruit specifically for that size or position a 6'10 dominating paint presence isn't likely to land in your lap.

I am not comparing their coaching ability, but Lonergan always had a lot more size on his rosters while Becker certainly recruits in the "best available" and talent-first mindset. While UVM wasn't nearly as dominating and consistent in the AE under Lonergan, they did pull off a lot more meaningful upsets like BC, Rutgers, etc. in that era.
 

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...they did pull off a lot more meaningful upsets like BC, Rutgers, etc. in that era.
The win over BC is one thing (although you can debate about what it really earned us, other than talking about it 15 years later). But we can't look down our nose at beating St. John's in 2020, then lump in that win we had over pre-Pikiell Rutgers as a "meaningful upset."
 

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The win over BC is one thing (although you can debate about what it really earned us, other than talking about it 15 years later). But we can't look down our nose at beating St. John's in 2020, then lump in that win we had over pre-Pikiell Rutgers as a "meaningful upset."
Sure, there's certainly some truth to that. The St. John's win was special and deserved. I just wonder if its over celebrated a bit.

Also, I remember Lamb, Davis and Giddens shared the court for extended periods in the game. When else has Becker played with that kind of size and physicality?

The size on that19-20 roster was an anomaly in the Becker era. And I'd say Giddens' interior defense and rebounding (including using his size to box out for the guards, and tipping back to guards on offensive glass--crucially important but not seen in the box score) is what kept UVM so close in Virginia and tipped the balance against SJU.

I'd be overjoyed to see another Giddens-type of transfer. But until UVM lands a capable 6'8+ transfer I'll be here in my corner complaining about the 6'3" five-guard lineup.
 

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There is PLENTY of outside and penetration offense on the current offense, and I'm not even accounting for Penn.

It's pretty clear that at UVM, at least under Becker, you have to earn your keys to the offense. Davis and Shungu leaving open up the door for Deloney, Robin, Sullivan, etc. I have zero concern about scoring against AE-level opponents. Just because the younger guys haven't had the opportunities of Davis and Shungu doesn't mean they aren't as capable.

IMO the Achilles heal of UVM basketball under Becker's tenure has always been size. And that's likely one of the reasons why that despite all the success over the last decade against AE and peer midmajors UVM hasn't pulled off a single true marquee upset (and likely why Becker is getting passed for A10 jobs).

The closest thing to an upset was probably the St John's game, but was that really a meaningful upset? A middling BE school that makes the tourney as an 11-seed play-in once-a-decade isn't remotely close to a much better-resourced ACC powerhouse (it's the Power 5, not Power 6).

The last big time upset I can think of was BC in the '06-07 season. Would UVM have been able to pull off that upset without Chris Holm? I say no. And I want to see another Chris Holm. You can always find skilled guards and outside scoring. Getting Chris Holm-types at the mid/low major level is a lot tougher and when you don't recruit specifically for that size or position a 6'10 dominating paint presence isn't likely to land in your lap.

I am not comparing their coaching ability, but Lonergan always had a lot more size on his rosters while Becker certainly recruits in the "best available" and talent-first mindset. While UVM wasn't nearly as dominating and consistent in the AE under Lonergan, they did pull off a lot more meaningful upsets like BC, Rutgers, etc. in that era.
I'd much rather win our conference and conference tournament most years than an occasional power conference upset. Getting to the NCAA is what helps pay the bills. An occasional upset is certainly nice and eye opening, but really what's it going to get us...maybe a 12 seed in a weak field year?

The year we had Giddens (who was a 6'10" dominating paint presence), we were built to win a game or two in the tourney with a lucky seed, but Covid ruined that.

Lonergan was a total ahole. I have no interest in fondly remembering his time.

I know that Becker has plenty of detractors around, but as far as I can tell, he doesn't abuse his players. I think that he is also a far superior coach. His win loss record definitely bears that out.
 

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Unless I'm missing something we've signed a 6'6" and (2) 6'7" players. That's pretty decent size. I don't believe in the idea of signing a Ryan Pierson/Pat Bergmann type just so the roster can say we've got a 6'10" player on it.

I only care about a "big" if they can play basketball and contribute. Sitting on the bench in a tie does nothing for me( this is the role many of our "bigs" have played recently) unless it's a coach.
One of those 6'7" players is a Freshman, you've been around long enough to know that VERY few Freshmen get significant minutes at UVM. I'd really hate to pin my hopes on him being the difference maker.

I don't think that anyone is saying, "just get a big body". I"m pretty sure that most are concerned that we have a really small roster right now and we'd all feel a lot better if we picked up someone in the 6'8"+ range that can play immediately.
 

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It sounds like people think we can get a Ryan Davis out there, but the news on that is if a player exists like that in the portal they are going to go to go BCS-or it's going to be a HS senior version of R Davis that may not be able to contribute like that next season.

*Maybe a Peyton Henson or Daniel Giddens exists out there, and I'm sure the coaching staff is trying to land that player and would welcome it if it does, but it's highly competitive for those guys and that situation may not exist given UVM is also in reload mode, unlike when Henson/Giddens joined UVM. The calculus for UVM is much different after losing 50ppg.

Anything less that the two players I mentioned above from a talent perspective, personally I'll pass and sign me up for any other player that can put the ball in the basket.
 

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I'd much rather win our conference and conference tournament most years than an occasional power conference upset. Getting to the NCAA is what helps pay the bills. An occasional upset is certainly nice and eye opening, but really what's it going to get us...maybe a 12 seed in a weak field year?

The year we had Giddens (who was a 6'10" dominating paint presence), we were built to win a game or two in the tourney with a lucky seed, but Covid ruined that.

Lonergan was a total ahole. I have no interest in fondly remembering his time.

I know that Becker has plenty of detractors around, but as far as I can tell, he doesn't abuse his players. I think that he is also a far superior coach. His win loss record definitely bears that out.
Just curious, what's your beef with Lonergan. As far as I know, he wanted out of Burlington as soon as he arrived...

As far as this obsession with size, it's not like we're alone. Every message board in America is consumed with it. Everyone wants a 6-8 (hopefully plus) dude with athleticism and skills. Thus, this player is very tough to get, especially at this level. Chris Holm is an anomaly. He really prospered at Vermont.

When we beat BC and Rutgers, I don't think they were exactly peaking. As far as I know, BC will never play us again.
 

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It sounds like people think we can get a Ryan Davis out there, but the news on that is if a player exists like that in the portal they are going to go to go BCS-or it's going to be a HS senior version of R Davis that may not be able to contribute like that next season.

*Maybe a Peyton Henson or Daniel Giddens exists out there, and I'm sure the coaching staff is trying to land that player and would welcome it if it does, but it's highly competitive for those guys and that situation may not exist given UVM is also in reload mode, unlike when Henson/Giddens joined UVM. The calculus for UVM is much different after losing 50ppg.

Anything less that the two players I mentioned above from a talent perspective, personally I'll pass and sign me up for any other player that can put the ball in the basket.
Personally, another Davis would be nice but we need someone who can be serviceable this season. How many guys are in the portal? Over 1200? there may well be a Henson or Giddens out there, but I'd be satisfied with someone like Ryan Pierson.

I'm sure the staff knows what they need and who they'd like to get and who they can get...this is all just off season chatter about roster construction from a bunch of people who have no say.
 

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Just curious, what's your beef with Lonergan. As far as I know, he wanted out of Burlington as soon as he arrived...

As far as this obsession with size, it's not like we're alone. Every message board in America is consumed with it. Everyone wants a 6-8 (hopefully plus) dude with athleticism and skills. Thus, this player is very tough to get, especially at this level. Chris Holm is an anomaly. He really prospered at Vermont.

When we beat BC and Rutgers, I don't think they were exactly peaking. As far as I know, BC will never play us again.
You know why he lost his job at GW, right? Do you think that kind of thing wasn't going on at UVM???

Perhaps I just don't like short coaches who throw hissy fits on the floor during games...
(with the exception of John Gallagher, of course :ROFLMAO: )
 

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I had some thoughts on this, but it was starting to get long and a bit of a ramble, so I'll try to sum it up this way: everyone agrees a 6-8+ guy with the scoring and defensive capabilities to play 25+mpg would help us. I think that guy is going to be hard to get (not impossible, but hard) and we need to decide what the next best thing is...and that also might mean deciding whether something better for 2024 or 2025 is better than something for 2023. Because there are definitely supplemental pieces available in the portal and in the 2022 class. But because big men seem to be overvalued in the desperation of spring, there are few good attainable centerpieces.

It's important to point out how much this team lost from last year in terms of production, because it helps prepare us for the idea that we're just not going to be able to replace all of it. I don't care if "the league is down," I don't care if we didn't upset Arkansas: this team won't the league by 6 f***ing games last year. This team was damn good. And even though I think Penn is a headliner kind of player, it's unrealistic to think that we can drop 4 starters and not lose any kind of step, even if we like the pieces that we have. The staff needs to find a way to simultaneously offset the losses as much as possible, while putting us in a position to gain for the future.
 

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We have the same conversation every year and every year Becker makes it work. In which year did I miss the dip? During Lamb's tenure we often had a kid 6'5" playing center and a 6'5" PF in Dingba (granted his wingspan was like 20 feet). Ryan Davis played very little that year (battling injuries & being a freshman) on a team that lost in the first round to Florida State by 7 or something. Maybe we win with a little height but sadly we'll never compete with high major recruiting.

2019: "We'll never replace TBH's production."
2020: 'We'll never replace Ernie Duncan's production."
2021: 'We'll never replace Anthony Lamb's production."
2022: "We'll never replace Stef Smith's production."
2023: "We'll never replace Ben Shungu's production."
 

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This team needs someone to run the offense through in the post. I don't care whether he's 6'4 or 7'4. This offense will be a complete disaster without the ability to balance the floor. None of the returning guards are quick enough to penetrate at will. Deloney only has average speed and handle for someone his size. In order to create open 3's you need to play inside out. There's no inside on the roster at the moment unless your running Duncan at PF. And his touch still leaves a lot to be desired.
 
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