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2022-23 Vermont Catamounts

165K views 1K replies 64 participants last post by  tizzy 
#1 ·
New thread alert! Next season starts today. Below is our roster as it stands today. Note: just for accounting purposes, I'm assuming any Super Senior with remaining eligibility is on the team until it is announced otherwise. It's just easier than guessing or speculating.

12 Scholarships Used - 1 Scholarship Available

SUPER SENIORS
-Ryan Davis
-Duncan Demuth
-Robin Duncan
-Kam Gibson
-Isaiah Powell
-Finn Sullivan

SENIORS
-Eric Beckett
-Aaron Deloney

JUNIORS
-Nick Fiorillo (on scholarship for 2023 per previous reporting)
-Georges Lefebvre

SOPHOMORES
-Evan Guillory

FRESHMEN
-Sam Alamutu
-Michel Ndayishimiye (walk-on)

COACH: John Becker

Obviously the decisions or Davis and Powell will be the biggest driver in terms of our available scholarship count.
 
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#725 · (Edited)
I'm pretty certain that Beckett & Lefebrve were last players added in their class, so in all likelihood and a fair amount of certainty they were players the coaching staff really just had to take a flyer on to fill the classes. Not every late add is going to be a TBH.

Guillory a bit of a different story as it seems like maybe there was other stuff going on, but either way point being not every recruit is going to work out and become even a serviceable role player. It's not just these 3, but others-Demuth, Murphy, can go on and on to Lonergan, Brennan, etc

Not every kid is going to be able to even put in the work or have the mindset to be a Ryan Shield/ role player type or have the fire/energy to become a Powlovich/Fiorillo type of player, either.

Finally, let's be honest COVID the last few years has turned recruiting traditional HS players on its head a bit as nobody really did it for 2021-22; then of course you obviously had two key recruiting assistants leave. It seems like UVM has gotten back to a bit more normalcy this season as well as the offers we've seen over Summer for 2023, but will see how that materializes via Fall official visits. For some schools in this conference, it's almost like they are punting on recruiting 4yr HS kids entirely, so things could be worse.
 
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#733 ·
Ryan Shields was a role player? I don't recall him playing much at all. I won't say more about that. Ryan seemed like a good man.

Yes, these are not your father or mother's Cats. I get it. Still, it's disturbing that we're forcing kids out.

Guillory seemed to be able to play at this level, so something else must've been going on.

A while back, I recall somone on this board commenting that Veretto was brought on to be a good student/practice player. I took exception. There's too much at stake for Becker to do that.
 
#728 ·
Re: Beckett and Lefebrve being "late commits." Incorrect. Please note dates in evidence below:



No- I didn't mean early Vs late signing period, I mean they weren't the first commitments UVM got in those classes.
 
#731 ·
Ah, for some reason I thought Beckett was like the last recruit in like a 4/5 recruiting class. Shows what last few years has been like.

I don't think anyone is questioning that Beckett & Lefebvre turned out to be misses. I didn't have either pegged for anything beyond role player, personally, though. A team still needs those.
 
#743 ·
Of all the things to be "disturbed" about regarding the men's basketball program at the moment, it's forcing kids out. Something that has bad power dynamics and hurts players more, but is nothing new. Nothing else. Can't think of anything else? Nothing that has happened in the last 2 years? Nothing that most people would consider much more disturbing?

Becker is no different from any other coach who is in win at all costs, screw the school, I'm here to win I don't give a shit. That's been quite clear since 2019 as we've learned. Veretto being brought on as a good student I'm sure helped his case by getting a scholarship among other things. However, you got it right when accurately saying there is too much at stake for Becker to care about that. It was just a bonus. He doesn't care about these guys' grades as long as they're eligible and passing. I don't know if you saw the academic honor roll for the league this past season, which is 3.0 or better, with special distinction for 3.5 or better for men's basketball was as follows:

Duncan Demuth
Robin Duncan
Nick Fiorillo
Georges Lefebrve
Justin Mazzulla

2 of those guys are gone, and the other isn't playing anymore. You can point that that being an anomaly, and it doesn't mean the rest are nearly flunking out, but likely in that 2.5-2.7 GPA area. Which, fine, that's really not the end of the world, but it's also UVM where grade inflation is very real so you do have to try to get bad grades there, by putting in very little effort. I'm sure they'll all say it was that they were "traumatized" by their fellow students calling out the toxic culture around the team, but let me let you in on a little secret: jocks act like the stereotypical jocks even at academic beacons like a public school with a 75% acceptance rate UVM (their GPAs are more in line with the rest of the student body anyway). And, when most of the players don't think their shit stink, and when they basically know "I'm just here to hoop" that's going to happen. It's really not placing blame on them...because they're right, they ARE just here to hoop. That's something that comes down to what the actual point of college athletics is in the first place, and the appetite of fans now whose mindset has now certainly matched the win at all costs mode, because the expectation is that winning must happen yearly, completely divorcing it from the idea that technically, these guys are supposed to be here to learn while playing basketball.
Is this why Duncan Demuth and presumably Skyler Nash were allowed to stay "with" the team even though they couldn't play? They get good grades and don't cost a player scholarship?
 
#738 ·
Regarding "learn while playing basketball". Yes, I agree. With that being said, division I athletes have tutors, academic advisors, structured study hall and are given every opportunity to succeed academically. Regular students don't have that to the same extent. These are young adults. How much more responsibility is the university supposed to take in ensuring that the students avail themselves of all of the resources and take academics seriously? If they are not academically inclined when they come to campus, they probably aren't going to be while they're here. It's not lost on me that UVM has not won an AE Academic Cup under the last two Men's BB coaches. I do find that disappointing, but academic cups don't pay the bills. I guess, at this point, if the athletes are good citizens while they're here and graduate, that's the minimum standard for me.
 
#742 · (Edited)
Right. My point is we could all just admit college sports is shambolic of a "student-athlete" experience once the constant desire and expectation to win and "elevate the program" talk constantly surrounds the team. That's generally when there are a lot of compromises that happen. From the "wait, the coach boots players who stink from the team off their scholarships? That shouldn't happen here!" to "okay students who really don't care about class" but we will keep acting like they are special and "not like those other (big boy power) schools" to things much much more serious, such as what's transpired over the last couple of years. I don't think anyone can fully say with confidence they actually believe everyone on the team in recent years has been "good citizens" lately, but another 20-win season and an NCAA bid is enough say "out of sight, out of mind" and I still get my treat.

None of the "ideal student-athlete" mantra preached by UVM and the AE matters to fans and both should just drop the act, but they don't need to. UVM has a fanbase that buys anything it sells them and will eat that sort of stuff up, all while being able to operate in the darker side of college sports with little consequence, while most fans stay willfully blinded by it because "well that just isn't true of little old UVM!" A lot want their cake and to eat it too. If more just admitted they could give a shit about off-court trangressions, whether or not players went to class or not, or what the coaches do to make sure they stay winning, it's a lot better than better than romanticizing the small little school that "does it the right way" sorta stuff. Just take the band aid off and say you value your entertainment and will excuse basically anything so long as you can get it.

Or, just be very aware of all of it, more or less stop attaching feeling or emotion to a team's performance and point out the harsh truth to people to piss them off like I do.
Yeah, it's certainly an interesting dynamic. I was absolutely (naively) one of those fans that idealized the program before the Lamb situation. I went through quite a bit of soul searching about whether I would continue to support the program. It certainly feels like "our little program" is evolving into some of what we might expect to see from power conference teams in terms of academics, accountability and behavior in a mid major conference with reasonable academic standards.

I'd love to see 4-5 year players, I'd love to see the team with a 3.5+ GPA, I'd love to see players winning awards for good citizenship, and I'd also like UVM to get to the tourney most years, but I'm just not sure all of those things can be done. So, I guess, put me in the camp of, "lets have as much cake as we can, and eat as much as we can, too".
 
#744 ·
The discipline and work ethic shown by UVM student-athletes speaks for itself. Graduating with a B- average paired with the proven work ethic and connections they have built will prepare the UVM basketball alumni for rewarding careers for decades. I'm not sure why anyone finds a need to criticize the athletes here.

I'm also having a little trouble following Catpower's criticism of the overall roster's GPA (which he projects is in that B- range, which sounds reasonable), but then Catpower at the same time acknowledges a B- is probably in line with the average UVM student. How is that something to be ashamed of? Not every athlete is Josh Speidel; is that your lofty expectation of everyone who puts on a UVM sweater?

And yes, they have access to tutors and support services that the student body doesn't have. But that's just to level the playing ground--have you looked at their non-conference schedule? Regular students will be able to go to in-person classes during much of that time while the basketball team is on transcontinental redeyes. I wouldn't say that's unfair; I'd call that leveling the playing the field and frankly not enough so.
 
#776 ·
I never said it was anything to be ashamed of. I'm simply saying that the idea that these guys are our best and brightest scholars and so clearly come to UVM because of their enriching academic experience and the chance to play basketball isn't true. You should know (big presumption on my part, but), that the athletic department and the league sells itself as "our kids are different! They are honor roll kids! They go to class!" Combine that with a fanbase of a certain age that actually thinks going to UVM is in line with an Ivy League education believe it wholeheartedly with a straight face, and use things like that as a justification for what "college sports is really all about" and you get a lot of people blissfully believing something that doesn't apply 1) to the men's basketball team anymore and 2) to the school in general.

As I said, the players are here to hoop and to win. That's what they want to do. That's their priority, it is what they are told by the coaching staff is their priority (and if they can't help with that priority, they are told not to come back in certain cases), given the number of hours they are told to commit to it in pursuit of winning. They get tutors/academic amenities that are needed for their schedule, yes. But, guess what? They also get told by academic advisors and coaching staff which classes to take with less rigid professors so they can be assured of passing grades. Some might even be told that the class they want to take or even their entire major conflicts with the practice and workout schedule, so they can't do them, because basketball is their priority, not school.

So, let's be honest about it. Don't buy the idea that anything UVM men's basketball does is "done the right way" when it comes to the romanticized student-athlete crap or coaches who care about these guys' academic careers in a meaningful way. Accept that they're more likely in line with an average student at best, stay eligible, and graduate, and yes, that's enough. But let's not place any particular emphasis on the program somehow being the place where all the problematic elements of college sports don't exist. They have sunk to the norm in that regard. The mentality of the team is no different than a P5 school some on here, or in the Patrick stands would deride. It's no different from any team in their league. That's just what has changed in college basketball. We're all better off when we understand it for what it is instead of ascribing characteristics to the team that doesn't really hold up.
Oh yes, "Vermont exceptionalism", I generally laugh it off even though I love the state. The irony is the "UVM exceptionalism" side of the coin are the people who think once you're outside Burlington's city limits there are no jobs, high poverty, meth-addicts and confederate flags in front trailer homes (Fact: Trump had the smallest % vote share in Vermont of all 50 states). Yes, I'm certainly exaggerating quite a bit but there is a proud UVM alumni on here who isn't that far from the mark. But I could care less. It doesn't bother me. I'm here to learn about the team I root for and talk to other fans.

Anyway, I basically agree with all that and I don't have any reason to believe UVM basketball/athletics operates any differently than peer institutions. I just don't see that as the "wrong way" (on a similar note I'm a knee-jerk "YES!" on the question of whether NCAA athletes should get paid).

I am also not one to deride P5 schools or their athletes, even Duke and Kentucky; schools and coaches with the most egregious "one-and-done" culture. Likewise UVM will never be a P5 school, but you can still root for success and support a coach who makes decisive decisions to continuously improve the roster; perhaps that is needed if the recruiting whiffs aren't one-offs but an actual weak spot for Becker/his staff.
 
#752 ·
Catpower - do you wake up feeling grumpy about UVM and its athletics, or does that feeling come on stronger as the day goes on?

I am not saying you are wrong on all fronts, but you are really pouring it on pretty thick.
I'm usually here for the Catpower "Catsplainers" on how all things work at UVM, towards the audience from his mind.

I've got him pegged as a disgruntled former UVM employee, personally.
 
#748 ·
Academic Cup? I wouldn't be too concerned with UVM winning that in mens bball. Look around this conference lol. It's no longer an apples/apples conference from an academic perspective, and hasn't been for....years. Candidly, I'm not sure an Academic cup means much with so much variance among the existing schools.
 
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#757 ·
Comebacks from you guys are always so cute. Maybe today it's been poured on a little, but once everyone gets over the idea that UVM actually has standards for anything with its men's basketball team, you too can be liberated.
[/QUOT
This is so fitting from the guy on here who multiple times propped up the "UVM is on par with Ivy League schools" on here. Great work, thank you for being YOU!
I think you’re a really bright human with a lot of really good insight and knowledge. And a lot of our ideas around the program actually line up. But you do come across as a glass half empty guy, constantly. A lot of (mostly justifiable) anger without much in solutions or hope. Are you even a fan anymore? Why do you come back? What are your goals? How could you be kinder to folks that don’t share your perspective? I think these are important questions.
 
#753 ·
This is so fitting from the guy on here who multiple times propped up the "UVM is on par with Ivy League schools" on here. Great work, thank you for being YOU!
If you think it's the same academic kids from High Schools getting into Hartford, Albany, UMBC....and then UVM....then you'd be wrong.
 
#758 ·
I wasn't kidding- I am generally here for the Catsplainers; it's typically very good insights and perspectives-a lot that's informative and often times I agree, TBH, but it all only becomes readable once someone can isolate and parse out the blanket labeling aimed at who truly knows, and why(?), incessant anger towards any and all athletic or academic hierarchies at UVM ("The Man"), and seemingly endless disdain for other people/life itself.

But once you get all the irrelevant, personal, doom & gloom stuff out of the way, there's usually some interesting nuggets to be found in there, somewhere.
 
#774 ·
“In the mid 2000’s the poster know as UVM4life20 would leave the board in shame after being constantly lambasted for his unpopular posts.

Little did the forum know, that he would obsessively seek revenge on the entire board, with a silent rage that propelled him to master the skills of low major basketball debate, twitter history, and the ins and outs of the UVM administrative faux pas.

Now he’s skilled, he’s back, hes pissed, and he’s powerful…. Catpowerfull….. And we’re all GOING TO PAY!!!!!!”
 
#763 ·
I thought I mentioned it, but I'm not a fan in the way any of you probably are. Not anymore at least. I've got my reasons. Now I'm just an observer who has committed too much time to it. I don't much care how I'm viewed here. It's online, it's not real life. As for coming back, it kills time and gives me something to do. Goals? I don't have any other than sharing what I know about a small college basketball team and its athletic department and my own opinions. No different from anyone else.

As for kindness, well, I can promise I won't say anything about your dead parents. I'll just make jokes about you guys blowing your loads to an Instagram post to a player set to average 1.3 points per game.
A lot of generalities, as well as rancor. Where is it coming from?

And since it's "not real life," how much of your rant is real?
 
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