Professional and College Basketball Forums banner
161 - 180 of 185 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
3,518 Posts
I think this is pretty obvious, but if one is to attribute a period of lack of recruiting, IMO it's mainly due obvious issues surrounding Becker/program.

Fair to say there was an extended period of time with great uncertainty whether or not Becker was going to remain as HC.

Maybe NIL has changed the math these days, but ask any college bb recruit and the #1 reason they commit to any school is because of the HC.
If there can be one reason to attribute the lack of success on the recruiting front, this has to be it.

On a much smaller scale, everyone getting free covid years of eligibility and the ability to transfer with immediate eligibility, kind of changes the roster building game. How quickly your program adapts and how lucky your program gets in the portal can have an impact.

With that being said, from a UVM standpoint, it is what it is. Most people will agree that the current roster construction is less than ideal. While it would be nice to see UVM continue its success, it's not unreasonable to suggest that there will be years when UVM doesn't hit its goals. As UVM fans, we're pretty spoiled to expect to be head and shoulders better than the rest of the league every year. Winning is fun, but I also find it interesting to see if Becker can coach up a roster that is less talented than many of his prior teams.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,260 Posts
Becker's job was never in real danger. It makes me wonder how many of you have really understood the case from the jump. UVM has maintained none of its officials did anything wrong. So far, they've maintained Becker had nothing to do with it. Why would someone's job be in jeopardy if that's your stance? Come on everyone.

This bad recruiting spell started before the Lamb stuff came out, don't see how that isn't pretty clear with the current upperclassmen left who arrived as freshmen. 2020 was supposed to be Becker's farewell, if not for Covid. He went all in on maximizing the team he had in 2020 with the returning POY, the best backcourt in the league which included a first-team all-conference player and the defensive player of the year, a sixth man of the year who became a two-time POY, plus rotational pieces/other starters that were better than most anything the rest of the league had to offer. Covid doesn't happen, that team more than likely makes the NCAAs and probably had a very good chance at an upset bid. On the court, it was built for that moment. Combine his very cryptic statements in The Athletic profile he had about wanting new challenges, and apparently even telling a staffer to be ready to put their condo on the market, and he thought he was off. And, he might have been depending on how the NCAAs went.

Now, he's left with a team he never thought he'd actually be coaching that is constructed funny and was the result of having last year's team directly benefit from the last of his truly good 4-year recruits. That doesn't mean he can dig them out of a hole (it's not like they are remotely out of winning the auto bid)...but, them getting away from not landing the types of guys that got them to their 27-win type seasons isn't entirely because of the off-court stuff; it's been 3-4 years in the making. If other coaches are using some negative recruiting against UVM that's fair game, you get what you deserve there, but I'd say the fact that the UVM coaches do tout Lamb being an NBA player to recruits, is a sign they don't view it as a negative, even if the school has stopped promoting him from a PR standpoint.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
34,712 Posts
No, I'm aware that Becker has not been the focus as other parties but anytime there's an investigation into the athletic department and NCAA lawsuit pending, you're not going to be able to recruit the same way as before up until that point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: benchwarmer

· Registered
Joined
·
3,518 Posts
Becker's job was never in real danger. It makes me wonder how many of you have really understood the case from the jump. UVM has maintained none of its officials did anything wrong. So far, they've maintained Becker had nothing to do with it. Why would someone's job be in jeopardy if that's your stance? Come on everyone.

This bad recruiting spell started before the Lamb stuff came out, don't see how that isn't pretty clear with the current upperclassmen left who arrived as freshmen. 2020 was supposed to be Becker's farewell, if not for Covid. He went all in on maximizing the team he had in 2020 with the returning POY, the best backcourt in the league which included a first-team all-conference player and the defensive player of the year, a sixth man of the year who became a two-time POY, plus rotational pieces/other starters that were better than most anything the rest of the league had to offer. Covid doesn't happen, that team more than likely makes the NCAAs and probably had a very good chance at an upset bid. On the court, it was built for that moment. Combine his very cryptic statements in The Athletic profile he had about wanting new challenges, and apparently even telling a staffer to be ready to put their condo on the market, and he thought he was off. And, he might have been depending on how the NCAAs went.

Now, he's left with a team he never thought he'd actually be coaching that is constructed funny and was the result of having last year's team directly benefit from the last of his truly good 4-year recruits. That doesn't mean he can dig them out of a hole (it's not like they are remotely out of winning the auto bid)...but, them getting away from not landing the types of guys that got them to their 27-win type seasons isn't entirely because of the off-court stuff; it's been 3-4 years in the making. If other coaches are using some negative recruiting against UVM that's fair game, you get what you deserve there, but I'd say the fact that the UVM coaches do tout Lamb being an NBA player to recruits, is a sign they don't view it as a negative, even if the school has stopped promoting him from a PR standpoint.
I never assumed it was. Perhaps some of his assistants were less than sure. I assumed he'd get a decent offer and leave, until it became apparent that no such offer was forthcoming. You make the case that Becker was pretty sure that he was leaving in your second paragraph, so...duh....pretty much everyone thought he'd get a better job.

Agree with your third paragraph.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,260 Posts
I never assumed it was. Perhaps some of his assistants were less than sure. I assumed he'd get a decent offer and leave, until it became apparent that no such offer was forthcoming. You make the case that Becker was pretty sure that he was leaving in your second paragraph, so...duh....pretty much everyone thought he'd get a better job.

Agree with your third paragraph.
Okay, well you quoted UVM Hoop Cat who said in part "Fair to say there was an extended period of time with great uncertainty whether or not Becker was going to remain as HC." and said "If there can be one reason to attribute the lack of success on the recruiting front, this has to be it. "

So, I assumed you were agreeing with all their statements, but this wasn't entirely directed at you either.

Yes, everyone thought he'd get a better job...but one thing you learn about "everyone" meaning us fans, and national media types, they often don't really know what's going on, or are doing favors for guys they like. Becker's issues as a job interviewer and concerns about how he'd translate at a higher level were still going to be there. No media guy is going to find out even off-record if that's how a guy is perceived. Or, even if they do, most just love flinging guys against the wall to see who sticks. People thinking they're a shoo-in for another job, then not getting it is pretty common. He might have, he might not have, but the fact remains he thought he was going to, and from all accounts was very assured of himself without much guarantee.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Just curious, what "great" job do you - or anyone out there - think Becker was going to get? Louisville? Pitt?

Besides winning, a lot of things have to fall into place to land that "great" job. Lonergan had the AE contact. Everyone passed on Rutgers and Pikiell got it somewhat by default. He also had a rabbi. To his credit, he has done an incredible job.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
We just had bunch of kids stick around from covid making recruiting difficult. Our last recruiting class was one of the best on paper. Hurley is as good as a guard as we have recruited. Big men struggle early. no one thought much of davis early either. veretto ayo and penn are a good group tranfers as well. This recruiting struggles is just long term memory loss for people. We shouldnt be favorites every year. This year especially given all the talent we lost the last two years.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,260 Posts
Just curious, what "great" job do you - or anyone out there - think Becker was going to get? Louisville? Pitt?

Besides winning, a lot of things have to fall into place to land that "great" job. Lonergan had the AE contact. Everyone passed on Rutgers and Pikiell got it somewhat by default. He also had a rabbi. To his credit, he has done an incredible job.
I think what you're not getting here is:

1) Head coaches who win like to think, assume, or demonstrate displays of overconfidence that they'll be plucked to the big time. That's because all of them have massive egos. Not all of them are really thinking about how the different factors at play and/or their connections or lack thereof might help or hinder them. From all I understand, that happened to Becker during the 19-20 season before Covid hit. There were jobs he thought he could get that in reality he probably couldn't, or the job simply didn't open because of the pandemic. Sometimes, people just think they're better than they are, and at that time, it appeared to be his thought process.

2) There are plenty of people out there who actually would believe Becker could fit at Pitt or Louisville. They just aren't the people making the real decisions. You should know how the national media, college basketball blog guys, and fans are. Most aren't looking past the surface level. They see a coach that wins 80% of his conference games, has had some NCAA bids, and just assume, well that guy should be coaching in a higher league because all they are doing is throwing names against the wall.

Last year Pete Thamel actually put Becker's name in as a candidate for LSU. It was laughable. But, this is what these guys do. Becker's name got the "potential candidate" name floated at Pitt before Capel was hired, and while he was struggling in recent years. It's the nature of how these searches play out in the media/fans eyes, because rarely is a Thamel or Goodman etc going to dig deep enough to learn why these guys aren't fits, or even if they know, explain why to others. They are not burning their chummy relationships with coaches to say "this guy isn't a fit because he doesn't have the right experience at that level, and he's a bad interview."

3) As for me personally? No, I never thought he was getting Pitt or Louisville or jobs of that nature. It has been stated here by myself and others, but Becker only has a finite level of jobs he's a fit for, and most P5s are not, especially jumping from Vermont. He's been seriously interviewed at URI (when Hurley left), and Duquense before they hired Dambrot. If he's going to move up, those are the kind of jobs he has to actually get. There's always a chance of being the 6th choice or tricking an AD into making you the guy and going above that level, but I doubt that will happen to him, because I doubt he's going anywhere at the moment.
 

· Realist/A-hole
Joined
·
6,392 Posts
I get what you are saying, but if we're passing the blame game onto assistants, just remember that both guys were here when that recruiting dip of the last 2-3 years started.

Two serviceable starters but not all-conference types (Deloney, Fiorillo) followed up with duds who transferred out, and TBD on some of the newcomers.

Meanwhile in another thread, people are having conversations about how UVM doesn't recruit NY enough to their liking. Seems the conversation needs to be less on where the players are coming from and whether or not the coaching staff of the last couple of seasons has lost sight of what type of player/skill sets got them to the position they've been in over the last 5 years.
It's an explanation, not a blame game. Even so that is the responsibility of the head coach who replaced two veteran recruiters with two wet behind the ears assistants.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,260 Posts
It's an explanation, not a blame game. Even so that is the responsibility of the head coach who replaced two veteran recruiters with two wet behind the ears assistants.
Yeah...Johnson had previous D1 experience, even if some was in grad roles...so at the AE level, his hire isn't out there. It's a league where guys are going to get their starts. Santo, you're correct. It is fine to take on one guy like that, but usually not two. Sometimes head coaches hire people who have resumes that don't threaten them/feel they should mold guys in their image.

I just think it's important not to point to just that, it's many things that have all reared their head now - as I said...this is something 3-4 years in the making with how recruiting went for this year's would-be junior/senior class, which was done by when the other two were around.
 

· Realist/A-hole
Joined
·
6,392 Posts
Player development is also another area which is potentially affected although harder to directly connect. Either way, they are where they are. They need to right the ship quickly before this downward blip becomes a trend.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
34,712 Posts
Roster construction is where it is likely due to all of these factors. Becker thinking he'd be gone, COVID & extra years, Cieplicki & Tibbs leaving for Pitt & Albany, investigation & NCAA lawsuit

Thoughts;

*While Becker likely wanting to ride off into the sunset w/ 2019-20, think we've always all agreed that Becker doesn't have a huge universe of schools he'd be the first choice/fit in just given his background, recruiting, etc So, winning AE championship or not who knows what jobs were available that season he'd actually be in play for.

* While I do think we'd have beaten Hartford in AE title game, reality is there's no guarantee of that. We swept them in regular season but the last meeting we only won by 1pt and Ellison & Carter were both capable of "Jairus Lyles'ing us". So, if we don't get past Hartford and end up in NIT obvi Becker doesn't have as many options then to move on, if any.

*Not sure if everyone remembers Lamb that season, while as dominant as a player as he was his senior year he transitioned to becoming more of a perimeter shooter/3pt shooter to get ready for NBA and as a result went from a 50% FG to 40 %FG and he was a 29% 3pt shooter, b/c he was taking so many. So, who knows how well we would have done in NCAA Tournament had we made it.

At the end of the day, doesn't really matter "why"; what matters is getting recruiting back to the level it was previously.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
I think what you're not getting here is:

1) Head coaches who win like to think, assume, or demonstrate displays of overconfidence that they'll be plucked to the big time. That's because all of them have massive egos. Not all of them are really thinking about how the different factors at play and/or their connections or lack thereof might help or hinder them. From all I understand, that happened to Becker during the 19-20 season before Covid hit. There were jobs he thought he could get that in reality he probably couldn't, or the job simply didn't open because of the pandemic. Sometimes, people just think they're better than they are, and at that time, it appeared to be his thought process.

2) There are plenty of people out there who actually would believe Becker could fit at Pitt or Louisville. They just aren't the people making the real decisions. You should know how the national media, college basketball blog guys, and fans are. Most aren't looking past the surface level. They see a coach that wins 80% of his conference games, has had some NCAA bids, and just assume, well that guy should be coaching in a higher league because all they are doing is throwing names against the wall.

Last year Pete Thamel actually put Becker's name in as a candidate for LSU. It was laughable. But, this is what these guys do. Becker's name got the "potential candidate" name floated at Pitt before Capel was hired, and while he was struggling in recent years. It's the nature of how these searches play out in the media/fans eyes, because rarely is a Thamel or Goodman etc going to dig deep enough to learn why these guys aren't fits, or even if they know, explain why to others. They are not burning their chummy relationships with coaches to say "this guy isn't a fit because he doesn't have the right experience at that level, and he's a bad interview."

3) As for me personally? No, I never thought he was getting Pitt or Louisville or jobs of that nature. It has been stated here by myself and others, but Becker only has a finite level of jobs he's a fit for, and most P5s are not, especially jumping from Vermont. He's been seriously interviewed at URI (when Hurley left), and Duquense before they hired Dambrot. If he's going to move up, those are the kind of jobs he has to actually get. There's always a chance of being the 6th choice or tricking an AD into making you the guy and going above that level, but I doubt that will happen to him, because I doubt he's going anywhere at the moment.
I think we're essentially in agreement...

In all likelihood, Becker needs an NCAA run to make the leap. URI and UMASS were obvious fits, but they went with "names," which Becker is not. UMASS had a bad experience with a UVM coach a few years so, so that probably did not help either. BC was another logical landing spot, but they seem to be staying clear of UVM since the Cats upset them years ago. Lastly, I don't think his age as well as some other factors are helping his case. Again, Becker needs a run - or a lot of other things to go right, like an AD who really likes and believes in him.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
962 Posts
When those “next tier” coaching jobs become available (and by that I’m talking specifically UMass and URI) it seems the fan bases and administrators really want the “splash type” hire over someone like Becker. They’d rather have the ambitious sharp looking guy who had failed at a mediocre ACC program than a stereotypical middle-aged Vermont golf dad who built at a consistent winning culture in a lower level conference.

Combine that with the fact that Becker has never coached the team to a true “upset” win (Close 2-possession NCAA R64 games or high profile ACC matches aren’t wins; I don’t consider SJU an “upset”) and i don’t find it likely Becker will be moving (fortunately in my opinion). I agree with Catpower there may have been a window . I like Becker but I’m not going to join the sympathy train that his high major ambitions became a “victim” of Coronavirus.

As a side not during the press conference after he surpassed TB for the win record I remember Becker saying “I never imagined being here with 265 wins.” He provided some nice stories about the grit of the team early on in circa 2011, but I can’t help but think there was a degree that he was thinking “I never thought I’d be stuck here this long.” Stuck is a harsh word but i think there’s a degree of that, or was 2-3 years ago.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
34,712 Posts
When Rhode Island hired David Cox and Becker the previous time URI was looking for a head coach, that should have been an eye-opening situation to all RE: Becker moving up.

He isn't the snake oil salesman the way Chambers was, or have the coaching fraternity pedigree that Pikiell (UConn/Calhoun), Lonergan(Maryland/Williams), had or have the right father like Odom (Odom/Wake Forest). He's never going to help an AD win a press conference they way both UMass and URI needed to with their recent hires.

His name has, and if UVM keeps winning, will show up on coaching lists at different places, but a lot of these media types are creating lists and need to put together a few mid-major flavors of the day. I don't think most of these writers really know what's actually going on, personally. Or, they are trying to hype certain guys that they have a dialogue with. Or, they need clicks/content and just throw together lists without any basis.

Earl Grant was mentioned at BC earlier in the thread; even he was probably like their 3rd/4th choice. Where does Becker fall on that list? Maybe 6-8? And how many years has his name come up on a "BC search" or UMass or URI or wherever; all similar situations. If BC needs another coach in 3-4 years, same place on the list most likely.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VCat_2015

· Registered
Joined
·
5,157 Posts
This thread got a little off the rails, re: recruiting. But to sum up, John Becker...

1) Turns 55 in April.
2) Has never coached (assistant or otherwise) at a level above the AE.
3) Does not look or sound like the future.

Regardless of any other variables, positive or negative, those 3 things are his biggest impediments.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
34,712 Posts
Yes; great call back to recruiting.

Do we know of any other 2023 HS players we're recruiting, in addition to Joba?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,260 Posts
It's cute how someone in here just re-formulates everything I said into their own entire post because...they don't want to agree with me since it would pain them too much? Cute.

Anyway, there are tons of guys being evaluated right now. Offer season isn't really in full swing and because of the portal, teams aren't necessarily deciding to give out all their spots.

Heard there was a German kid on Shungu's original pro team (he got cut and signed with another team recently) that might have been of interest to the team. It's hard to say what will materialize between now and then.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
34,712 Posts
It's cute how someone in here just re-formulates everything I said into their own entire post because...they don't want to agree with me since it would pain them too much? Cute.
I think we agree on some things, disagree on others.

Your original post, as I read it, made the claim that Becker stopped recruiting because he thought he'd be coaching somewhere else. That may have been part of it, but only one factor (others being what I previously mentioned) as to current state of the roster, and given how hard it's been for him to move up not sure how guaranteed that would have ever been, which is what my post was meant to illustrate.

I do agree in terms of what other coaching opportunities Becker would have; but I think most on this forum are on the same page with that. I also agree that most of the pundits will have him as a candidate at places where he's not going to be a top choice or realistic option.

TL; DR It's simply gotten to the point now w/ Becker that if he realistically could actually get these other jobs, he would have by now.
 
161 - 180 of 185 Posts
Top