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Discussion Starter #1
The Raptors get little to no value in return for these guaranteed contracts.

6.3 MIL <b>Alvin Williams</b> - Grunwald
5.3 MIL <b>Lamond</b> - Grunwald
4.0 MIL <b>ZO</b> - Babcock
4.0 MIL <b>Eric Williams</b> - Babcock
4.0 MIL <b>Aaron Williams</b> - Babcock
0.8 MIL <b>Loren Woods</b> - Babcock
2.2 MIL <b>Hoffa</b> - Babcock
===============
26.6 MIL

Raps used amnesty clause on ZO so as far as potential cap space is concerned it would take that number down to ~23 Mill.

Trading Rose + either Eric/Mo Pete for expring contracts would mean going in to next year 23 million free up + woods/Murray/Aarron = 10 MILL off books in expiring contracts.

That is a total of 33 MILLION then the highest paid player would be Alvin Williams (6.8 Million) - he has a player option - could he be bought out?

dunno but as these heavy salaries finally start to peel away I hope the franchise has learned it's lesson about getting value a respectable return on investment.
 

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i find myself wondering about our payroll quite often. in some ways, it seems that babcock's just fighting his way through/cleaning up the "grunwald mess" (as some have put it), but i don't know whether it's realistic to assume that the "mess" won't come again- with the arrival of a somewhat competitive roster.

i mean, maybe babcock will offer some mediocre players relatively enormous contracts like grunwald did for jyd and alvin (especially... although several others could fit the bill- like the nightmare) when the time is right, i don't know. have gm's around the league learned their lesson? i'm not sure. maybe, but maybe not. they may have learned what contracts were good ones or bad ones since they were originally drafted, but i don't think many gm's have necessarily learned to prevent signing their players to ridiculous contract sizes. i think gm's in all sports will continue to be plagued by heavy pressure, ultimately resulting in unclear evaluations of their own players (otherwise known as bias).

for one, i don't know how shaq managed to sign another extension at the level he did- okay, he took a pay cut for the remaining time on his original deal, but even the replacement is hard to fathom. i'd like to think that babcock could avoid that sort of myopia, and always keep an eye on the long-term future (especially as it pertains to the payroll), but babcock did sign rafer to a ridiculously long mle draft in 2004. he took a big chance there (and that's not only looking at it retrospectively- i think it was always seen as a big risk, for better or worse). so i don't know. maybe babcock's wisdom and objectivity is only present before his own bias gets the chance to affect the thoughts in his head. it's got me wondering... what'll happen in '07?

peace
 

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I'm pretty sure Babcock and the MLSE are going to start doling out the cash as soon as we have cap space; I just hope that the money is spent on bringing in real talent rather than keeping mediocre talent.

For me, there's only one offseason to really play below the cap if it's going to be done properly. You can make trades that you couldn't otherwise and you can definitely sign players that you wouldn't have a chance at otherwise. From my perspective, you might as well spend as much as you can all at once and really improve your team, like the Cavs did this summer. After that, you're back to playing above the cap but you actually have surplus pieces to deal in trade and the full MLE to work with (along with the draft of course, though we'll be missing out on that one year). I'd take it even one step further in delaying Chris Bosh's re-signing so we can sign to an amount above the salary cap. All this depends on our ownership's willingness to pay out the big bucks but I don't see why not, they're not able to spend on the Leafs so much anymore.

So it comes out looking somewhat like this: we're able to sign 2 big free agents and a smaller one, bring over Ukic, AND THEN sign Bosh (so his salary only counts against the cap for 5 million instead of 10 or whatever before the others are signed). Would be nice to keep our draft pick and get a guy we can keep in europe, so he doesn't eat at our cap space either. Sign Magloire and Mason and...Monta Ellis- I don't know if they'd be good guys to spend money on, it's just an example. Then sign Bosh. Let Bonner go. Etc. You wind up with a high payroll again but you've got a lot of talent to wheel and deal with and develop. Before we had none of these things so it is a highly different situation that illustrates how much better this team will be built if all goes according to plan. Do remember that the luxury tax has to be triggered by league revenues vs salaries. Even if it is, it's money well spent on the development of our team.

On the other hand we could re-sign Bosh first (to a max contract of course) and spend under the cap in fear of a future luxury tax. Escalating salaries would take us to the cap the next season and we'd be in the situation, just with fewer bargaining chips.

With farm development available in some capacity now, we really need to start taking advantage. I love that Babs has already started in this direction. As we strive towards a championship we should have a team at least 12 deep with starting-calibre talent, and 3-4 guys in Europe or the D league. It's not cheap but this isn't a once off run for the title, you need to keep developing talent from all angles. Eventually, contracts will start coming to expiration and then you have the option of playing the above the cap game with trades (ala New York) or saving some money by letting them expire.
 

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charlz said:
The Raptors get little to no value in return for these guaranteed contracts.

6.3 MIL <b>Alvin Williams</b> - Grunwald
5.3 MIL <b>Lamond</b> - Grunwald
4.0 MIL <b>ZO</b> - Babcock
4.0 MIL <b>Eric Williams</b> - Babcock
4.0 MIL <b>Aaron Williams</b> - Babcock
0.8 MIL <b>Loren Woods</b> - Babcock
2.2 MIL <b>Hoffa</b> - Babcock
===============
26.6 MIL

Raps used amnesty clause on ZO so as far as potential cap space is concerned it would take that number down to ~23 Mill.
Good post, it's like we're competing with one hand tied behind our backs. Although technically the amnesty on Zo doesn't help cap space, it only helps prevent the luxury tax from kicking in.

Look at the teams who go deep in the playoffs, they don't have dead salary.

Ballocks, the Shaq deal isn't so bad. Look at it this way, would you rather have Shaq, or the crap listed above? Shaq may be pricey, but he makes you a contender (as long as he isn't injuried all the time, which is no guarantee).
 

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Ballyhoo said:
Good post, it's like we're competing with one hand tied behind our backs. Although technically the amnesty on Zo doesn't help cap space, it only helps prevent the luxury tax from kicking in.

Look at the teams who go deep in the playoffs, they don't have dead salary.

Ballocks, the Shaq deal isn't so bad. Look at it this way, would you rather have Shaq, or the crap listed above? Shaq may be pricey, but he makes you a contender (as long as he isn't injuried all the time, which is no guarantee).
Zo's buyout does help cap space though.
 

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Eric, Aaron, Hoff, and Loren are not DEAD salaries at all. They can all produce when on the floor. All but Aaron are worth their contracts.

EWill is worth every penny when healthy and could be a big part of our season if Rose is moved soon. Hoff got what any rook picked in that spot would get. So any rook in the league that isn't getting big PT is DEAD money? I don't think so. Where is Pape on your list.

Aaron is overpaid and Loren makes the minimum. Balances out to 2.5 each. That's OK.

You have to carry 14 guys, and on most teams 5 of them won't play. You won't have them all making 1mill or less. That's not realistic. So every team is going to have some dead money.

The real dead money on the Raps is:
Zo - one more year
Lamond - last year of his deal
Alvin - if he doesn't play this year
Rose - the biggest money pit of all

The other guys are useful and somebody has to sit on your bench anyway.
 

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Loren Woods for minimum is fine. Aaron Williams is overpaid, but it's only one more season. As is Murray. EWill, if he's playing, would validate his money, but he's seemingly not getting that opportunity. Alvin Williams and Mourning, you're stuck with.
 

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lucky777s said:
Eric, Aaron, Hoff, and Loren are not DEAD salaries at all. They can all produce when on the floor. All but Aaron are worth their contracts.
Uh, combined these guys have 24 points and 32 fouls so far this year. They're making over $10 million combined.
 

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doesn't mean they CAN'T produce if given minutes. I mean, it's hard to argue for a player who doesn't get any burn. But, that's the number one issue. Eric, Aaron, and Loren are all expiring contracts, so really, their contracts don't handcuff us at all. I'd say the #1 salary problem on our team goes by JR.

I personally love what Babcock has done to date. My main problem with the Raptors is Sam Mitchell's subbing patterns... And the fact that they haven't traded Jalen Rose yet. But I can deal with that. Next year, he expires and he's almost not a bad contract anymore.
 

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Start cleaning up this house...

Move E-Will to Lakers for Devean George (which isn't a bad player and have an expiring contract).

And of course, move Jalen to NY for Penny and a draft pick.


And I have another trade idea...

GS send Cheaney to Milwaukee;

TO send Aaron Williams to GS, Loren Woods to Memphis and Rafael Araujo to Seattle;

Seattle send Robert Swift to NO;

NO send Maciej Lampe and Arvydas Macijauskas to TO;

Memphis send Jake Tsakalidis to TO;

Milwaukee send Reece Gaines to NO;


Why?

GS: They need another big man... Aaron can fill that void (and is more useful than Cheaney in that team)

TO: They get three younger players.. They aren't playing Hoffa and Woods (Sam looks like he doesn't like them), and not even play Aaron. They get a project younger C in Lampe, another big in Tsakalidis (which isn't a bad player) and an agressive swingman in Snyder... Better hope to the future!

Seattle: They already have a too young C in Petro. They get in Hoffa a bigger C, which is a better scorer also (which seems that their coach Bob Weiss like).

NO: They aren't using Lampe and Macijauskas. They get a good project C in Swift (which have three years in contract) and a backup SG/PG in Gaines (which can play in injury cases)

Memphis: Get cap relief with Woods lesser and lower contract. He can produce the same that Tsaka is producing for now.

Milwaukee: A veteran SF/SG in Cheaney will be more useful to this team than Gaines is being for now... He can help with his experience and his good defense.


Tell me your thoughts on this idea.

The roster will be...

Lampe or CV3 starting/Tsaka/Sow
Bosh/CV3/Bonner/Lampe if needed.
Graham/Mo Pete/George
Mo Pete/Macijauskas/Mike James
Mike James/Calderon/Martin
 

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Discussion Starter #11
ballocks said:
i find myself wondering about our payroll quite often. in some ways, it seems that babcock's just fighting his way through/cleaning up the "grunwald mess" (as some have put it), but i don't know whether it's realistic to assume that the "mess" won't come again- with the arrival of a somewhat competitive roster.

i mean, maybe babcock will offer some mediocre players relatively enormous contracts like grunwald did for jyd and alvin (especially... although several others could fit the bill- like the nightmare) when the time is right, i don't know. have gm's around the league learned their lesson? i'm not sure. maybe, but maybe not. they may have learned what contracts were good ones or bad ones since they were originally drafted, but i don't think many gm's have necessarily learned to prevent signing their players to ridiculous contract sizes. i think gm's in all sports will continue to be plagued by heavy pressure, ultimately resulting in unclear evaluations of their own players (otherwise known as bias).

for one, i don't know how shaq managed to sign another extension at the level he did- okay, he took a pay cut for the remaining time on his original deal, but even the replacement is hard to fathom. i'd like to think that babcock could avoid that sort of myopia, and always keep an eye on the long-term future (especially as it pertains to the payroll), but babcock did sign rafer to a ridiculously long mle draft in 2004. he took a big chance there (and that's not only looking at it retrospectively- i think it was always seen as a big risk, for better or worse). so i don't know. maybe babcock's wisdom and objectivity is only present before his own bias gets the chance to affect the thoughts in his head. it's got me wondering... what'll happen in '07?

peace
nice post a couple quick things came to mind.

1. he did sign <b>skip</b> to that insane contract but then parlayed him in to <b>mike james</b> - who is an invaluable asset to the team.

2. He did not flinch with <b>bonner</b> and considering BOSTON got <b>Brian Scal</b> for 15 Mil bonner seems like a deal.

+ woods (only 800k) not panicking and taking Jay Williams, + letting the Market dictate MO PETE's hard to figure value.

You have to say Babs is way more savvy than <b>Grunwald</b> who threw all that money at <b>alvin</b> and <b>Hakeem</b> for instance.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ballyhoo said:
Uh, combined these guys have 24 points and 32 fouls so far this year. They're making over $10 million combined.
exactly - this post is not a "what if" post.

bottom line these guys are being doled out millions and giving nothing or next-to-nothing to the fans and franchise.

In order to be a winner you need to get rid of the dead wood.
 

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charlz said:
You have to say Babs is way more savvy than <b>Grunwald</b> who threw all that money at <b>alvin</b> and <b>Hakeem</b> for instance.
AND JYD AND AD

- on a related note. I cannot rid the Raptors of Rose no matter how hard I try in my NBA LIVE 06 season.
 

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shookem said:
are these numbers the same as hoopshype? either way thx speedy....it looks like the only dead salary is alvin's and Zo's.

question? what happens when and if Alvin retires?
It's a compilation of a number of different salary figures from different sites along with some assumptions (because we won't know the exact salaries until the Post or the Times or whichever NY newspaper prints them again this year).

If Alvin retires we pay his salary but it won't count against the cap/luxery threshold, supposedly.
 

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speedythief said:
It's a compilation of a number of different salary figures from different sites along with some assumptions (because we won't know the exact salaries until the Post or the Times or whichever NY newspaper prints them again this year).

If Alvin retires we pay his salary but it won't count against the cap/luxery threshold, supposedly.
A) hearing that those numbers come from a combination of sites is wicked.
B) Supposedly that'd be awesome.
C) if I could rep you I would, but it says I need to spread the love.
 

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speedythief said:
It's a compilation of a number of different salary figures from different sites along with some assumptions (because we won't know the exact salaries until the Post or the Times or whichever NY newspaper prints them again this year).

If Alvin retires we pay his salary but it won't count against the cap/luxery threshold, supposedly.
I don't think that's the case, unfortunately. If Alvin hadn't played any games and was ruled unfit, then his salary would stop counting against the cap two years after his last game (or that's what it was before). Now he's played a game. The real question here is what happens when the retired player has a player option? I don't remember this ever happening before but it probably has at some time. Also the possibility of a player option buyout that I wish someone would ask babs about.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
shookem said:
question? what happens when and if Alvin retires?
he would have to opt out of his contract and retire - and walk away from about 15 mill USD.

the odds of that happening are about 1 in 15MIL no matter how nice the raps are to him.
 
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