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Pat Riley said it himself this morning: The Heat are rebuilding. With Mourning out of the picture in Miami, its time for them to prepare for next summer's free agent class.

The Bulls are in an excellent position to help themselves and the Heat achieve their own particular goals. It's time for the Bulls to trade for Eddie Jones.

Here's the breakdown. The Bulls send Fizer, Robinson, Hoiberg and Bagaric to Miami for EJ. Then the Bulls use the veteran's minimum to sign one of the following SF's: Dan Langhi, Walt Williams, Lee Nailon, or Tyrone Nesby.

Bulls Starters
PG: Jamal Crawford
SG: Eddie Jones
SF: Jalen Rose
PF: Donyell Marshall or Tyson Chandler
C: Eddy Curry

Backups
PG: Jay Williams
SG: Trent Hassell
SF: Langhi, W. Williams, Nailon, or Nesby
PF: Tyson Chandler or Donyell Marshall
C: Corrie Blount

Wasn't it Krause's intention a few years back to sign two "full boat" free agents? By acquiring Jones he's effectively accomplished what he set out to do the summer of 2000. At that time he had targeted Duncan, Hill, McGrady, Jones and Rose. Had he signed both Jones and Rose at that time they'd be making the same amount of money they are today. And Bulls fans would have been thrilled.

So you say you're afraid of Jones' contract. Well by trading Fizer and Robinson, the Bulls payroll only increases by $2.3 million in '03/'04 and by $1.8 million in '04/'05. There is a presumption that the Bulls would exercise their option on Fizer for next year and at worst would be stuck paying him the qualifying offer his contract calls for in '04/'05. In terms of NBA payrolls, we're talking pocket money. And lets not forget that Krause was supposed to have told Marshall's agent that the Bulls aren't concerned about paying the luxury tax.

What does Miami get out of this? We know Grant will move to center. That opens a spot up for Fizer. Robinson starts at SF and Hoiberg and Caron Butler split time at SG.

Riley will have the option whether he wants to pick up Fizer's and Bagaric's options for next year. And Hoiberg is on an ending contract. In effect the only contract the Heat are responsible for beyond this season is Eddie Robinson's. That means the Heat could reduce their payroll next season by another $6 million. That gives the Heat a payroll of only $24 million heading into free agency next summer. Wouldn't that put them in the enviable position of grabbing the pick of the litter in '03?

In Jones, the Bulls get a top flight defender. They've now surrounded their young prospects with productive, accomplished veterans in Rose, Marshall, and EJ. And make no mistake about it, the Bulls are now a genuine playoff contender.

Remember, the Bulls will not be players in next summer's free agent market. This is Krause's opportunity to acquire a top tier player who fills several needs. Simply put, he can't afford not to at least make inquiries about Jones' availability.
 

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WOW ! ! !

I love it ! ! ! I thought about Jones too but do you (honestly) think that Pat will give up Jones - an allstar caliber players for bench players ? ? ? I truly love this trade idea but I think it would be even if we put in a pick (maybe #2) but if this trade ever happened it would be the talk of the town. Rose, Jones, Jay, Eddy, Tyson,:eek: WOW ! ! !
 

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Personally, I say [edited by TB#1] Eddie Jones. I don't want a player who verbally committed to us a few years back and then backed out. He doesn't want to be here, and that's a bad omen.

You are correct that the in the absence of Zo, Grant will be playing center, and that leaves a big vacancy at the 4 for the Heat, which Fizer could fill. However, if not Jones, that team has just about nothing except for Caron Butler, but I don't think they want to give him up. This might do it, but I doubt it:



Miami trades: PF LaPhonso Ellis (7.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 25.5 minutes)
PF Caron Butler (7.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 25.5 minutes)
Miami receives: PF Marcus Fizer (12.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 1.6 apg in 25.8 minutes)
PG Jamal Crawford (9.3 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 2.4 apg in 20.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +14.5 ppg, +2.8 rpg, and +3.1 apg.

Chicago trades: PF Marcus Fizer (12.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 1.6 apg in 25.8 minutes)
PG Jamal Crawford (9.3 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 2.4 apg in 20.9 minutes)
Chicago receives: PF LaPhonso Ellis (7.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 66 games)
PF Caron Butler (7.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 66 games)
Change in team outlook: -14.5 ppg, -2.8 rpg, and -3.1 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

You have been assigned Trade ID number 767018
 

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I wouldn't do it. I think Eddie Robinson by himself could be as productive as Jones if he is healthy. Jones is a good player, but not a great player. Stand pat for now and see what the team can do.
 

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I would support this trade.

However, I don't think that the Heat would go for it unless they were certain that eRob was healthy and playing at least as well as he did for the Hornets. A healthy Jones at $12M is better than an injured player at $6M. So it seems like this could be a mid-year deal.

Therefore, Krause, not Riles, will need to decide to extend Fizer and Bags (and Craw) one year. Tough decision.

The Bulls could have as few as two (Blount and Hoiberg) or as many as five ending contracts. Having 4 ending contracts could be pretty valuable at the mid-seasons trading deadline.
 

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Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
Pat Riley said it himself this morning: The Heat are rebuilding. With Mourning out of the picture in Miami, its time for them to prepare for next summer's free agent class.

The Bulls are in an excellent position to help themselves and the Heat achieve their own particular goals. It's time for the Bulls to trade for Eddie Jones.

Here's the breakdown. The Bulls send Fizer, Robinson, Hoiberg and Bagaric to Miami for EJ. Then the Bulls use the veteran's minimum to sign one of the following SF's: Dan Langhi, Walt Williams, Lee Nailon, or Tyrone Nesby.

Bulls Starters
PG: Jamal Crawford
SG: Eddie Jones
SF: Jalen Rose
PF: Donyell Marshall or Tyson Chandler
C: Eddy Curry

Backups
PG: Jay Williams
SG: Trent Hassell
SF: Langhi, W. Williams, Nailon, or Nesby
PF: Tyson Chandler or Donyell Marshall
C: Corrie Blount

Wasn't it Krause's intention a few years back to sign two "full boat" free agents? By acquiring Jones he's effectively accomplished what he set out to do the summer of 2000. At that time he had targeted Duncan, Hill, McGrady, Jones and Rose. Had he signed both Jones and Rose at that time they'd be making the same amount of money they are today. And Bulls fans would have been thrilled.

So you say you're afraid of Jones' contract. Well by trading Fizer and Robinson, the Bulls payroll only increases by $2.3 million in '03/'04 and by $1.8 million in '04/'05. There is a presumption that the Bulls would exercise their option on Fizer for next year and at worst would be stuck paying him the qualifying offer his contract calls for in '04/'05. In terms of NBA payrolls, we're talking pocket money. And lets not forget that Krause was supposed to have told Marshall's agent that the Bulls aren't concerned about paying the luxury tax.

What does Miami get out of this? We know Grant will move to center. That opens a spot up for Fizer. Robinson starts at SF and Hoiberg and Caron Butler split time at SG.

Riley will have the option whether he wants to pick up Fizer's and Bagaric's options for next year. And Hoiberg is on an ending contract. In effect the only contract the Heat are responsible for beyond this season is Eddie Robinson's. That means the Heat could reduce their payroll next season by another $6 million. That gives the Heat a payroll of only $24 million heading into free agency next summer. Wouldn't that put them in the enviable position of grabbing the pick of the litter in '03?

In Jones, the Bulls get a top flight defender. They've now surrounded their young prospects with productive, accomplished veterans in Rose, Marshall, and EJ. And make no mistake about it, the Bulls are now a genuine playoff contender.

Remember, the Bulls will not be players in next summer's free agent market. This is Krause's opportunity to acquire a top tier player who fills several needs. Simply put, he can't afford not to at least make inquiries about Jones' availability.

not only did JK want jones that year, he tried to get him last year. Yes i was for it last year. Im for it now. We do not need his offense but his defense!! yes. His experience? Yes. And we would be a playoff team.

But, since mourning is down and out and they are rebuilding, does that mean that they will get rid of their top scorer?

They will be hurting thats for sure but making such a trade now would also give Butler time to get used to the NBA.
 

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Although I'm not an Eddie Jones fan, I'd be excited to get him so cheaply. However, despite Miami's current predicament, I don't think there's any chance they do this deal, even though it's so cap friendly for them and it relieves them of Jones's contract (which, let's face it, lasts a lot longer than the amount of time he'll be a good player). It's just too hard to sell from a PR standpoint, since clearing cap room guarantees a team absolutely nothing, as we all know.

Essentially the deal boils down to Jones for ERob. Even though Miami's probably the only place outside of Charlotte and Chicago where fans know who ERob is, it's not enough for Riles to pull the trigger.
 

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Don't do it Rashard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The scuttlebutt is that Rashard is just about to announce his signing in Dallas

Here is the 11th hour deal

Miami trades

Eddie Jones To Chicago
Eddie House To Seattle


Total - $11.95M - including Eddie Houses's qualifying offer of $750K that counts aginst the cap .

receives back $11.7M in Lewis and Weatherspoon

Seattle trades

Rashard Lewis To Miami

Total - $6.8M( sign and trade )

receives back $5.75M in Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford and Eddie House - cuts Eddie House by not extending qualifying offer making him an UFA and able to sign back on with Miami if they want him

Chicago trades

Marcus Fizer To Seattle
Jamal Crawford To Seattle
Eddie Robinson To New York

Total $10.7M

receives back Eddie Jones.

New York trades

Clarence Weatherspoon To Miami

Total $4.9M

receives back $5.75M in Eddie Robinson

Why for Miami

They rebuild in a pretty big hurry adding another building block in Rashard to the principal building block of the future in Caron Butler. If Butler is all that and has the inside bullocking game of Paul Pierce than the silky perimeter game of Rashard would sit well.

Brian Grant in the warrior vet in for the long haul and Clarence Weatherspoon is a previous Riley favourite that also adds rebounding and defense to the frontline. I would also expect them to bring back Ken Jonhnson from Europe if they can and maybe bring Sean Marks in again to pair with Vladimir Stepania for bit parts on the front line - given the latest unfortunate news on Zo .

Travis Best was a good pick up at $1.4M and the woeful shooting Anthony Carter has 2 seasons to go before his contract is up - but they need help at the point ( which they may address next draft ) and at Center which they may address in next year's free agency

In doing this trade they would be at around $37M before renouncing free agents going into next summer and therefore would be better off padding out their roster with those free agents they may wish to keep ( Best, Phonz and Stepania )

So it is a question as to whether their MLE nextyear may net them someone like Elden Campbell - who I would expect to have several suitors at $4.5M leaving him in a situation to play where he chooses

All in all I would think that if Eddie Jones netted them Rashard Lewis and Clarence Weatherspoon they would have to seriously consider it

Starting 5

C : Brian Grant
PF :Clarence Weatherspoon
SF :Rashard Lewis
SG :Caron Butler
PG: Travis Best

Key Reserves

Ken Johnson
Laphonso Ellis
Eddie House ( assuming he signs back on if he were to be released by Seattle )
Anthony Carter

yeah their depth stinks - but it stinks with or without EJ

Why for Seattle

Seattle needs to be blown up .

Rashard is not going back so it seems - their management won't negotiate further and you have the tinderbox that is Gary Payton who probably won't sign on if the Sonics don't look like a contender but appear to be more of a rebuilder

House is thrown in to facilitate the deal but they could cut him straight away with no impost.

That leaves Fizer and Crawford - options on which could be passed on by the Supes who effectively could rent them for a year to evaluate them and then decide whether to pick them up in free agency next year - as well as preserving their cap flexibility for next year

They lose Rashard for nothing as it stands at the moment and get Fizer and Crawford for 1 year with no commitment beyond - yet can bid for them if they want next summer.

Starting 5

C : Jerome James
PF : Marcus Fizer
SF : Vladimir Radmanovic
SG : Brent Barry
PG : Gary Payton

Key Reserves

Calvin Booth
Desmond Mason
Jamal Crawford
Kenny Andersen

Why for New York

Its as simple as Weatherspoon is surplus behind McDyess and Harrington and Thomas ( also a PF playing Center) Knight and Doleac are all there to play the front line

Outside of Shandon Andersen that is no depth at the 3 and 2 spots of any note.

This trade from New York's perspective is more about positional balance for very similar contracts that run for the same amount of time ( with ERob's being marginally more expensive )

Why for Chicago

It further legitimises our intent to put a serious product on the floor straight away .

Eddie like Jalen's contract crosses path with Eddy and Tyson qualifying offer contract year in 2005/2006 - BUT we would no have ERob's $7M in the last year of his contract

I don't see that as much of an issue as in 3 years time , hopefully Eddy, Tyson and Jay are developed sufficiently in approaching NBA dominance in their respective positions and this youth core with Jalen and Eddie would round out a killer starting 5 that is seriously contending.

I would like to think we still have role players - Bagaric, Marshall, Hassell and Mason + whoever else we add via draft over the next 3 years

I most certainly concur with HJ that we should do this trade if it were offered - in fact I wanted Eddie Jones prior to the Jalen Rose trade when it seemed to be getting down to one or the other - but to have both would be sensational - the perfect complement to each other .

Definately puts us into the playoffs - as to who far we would go depends on how Tyson, Eddy and Jay cope

Starting 5

C : Eddy Curry
PF: Donyell Marshall
SF: Jalen Rose
SG: Eddie Jones
PG: Jay Williams

Key reserves

Tyson Chandler
Corie Blount
Lonny Baxter
Trent Hassell

IR

Dalibor Bagaric
Roger Mason Jr
Fred Hoiberg

Free agent targets - at the minimum to add to roster of 14

One of

Dan Langhi ( glad to see you like him too HJ )

or

Scott Padgett ( a Dan Langhi type but harder to get then Dan Kanghi IMO )

My choice is for Dan Langhi is hobby horse y'all know I have been on for awhile

One of

Rick Brunson

or

John Crotty

Likewise I have long been an advocate of the Brunson Burner

RASHARD IS THE KEY THOUGH AS I DO NOT SEE MIAMI TAKING EROB BACK BUT THEY MAY BITE ON RASHARD AND RASHARD MAY GO IF WE A ) GETS HIS MONEY ( APPRAOCHING A $70M CONTRACT ) AND B) GETS TO BE ONE OF TWO PRINCIPAL OPTIONS ON OFFENSE - CAN HE SAY THE SAME ABOUT HIS SITUATION IN DALLAS - DUMB MOVE ON HIS PART IF HE GOES - BUT THEN HE DIDNT MAKE THE SMARTEST CHOICE LAST TIME HE SIGNED EITHER
 

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not to burst bubbles

but these two trade ideas need work for these reasons

1 eddie jones is not a max type player although he gets paid like one trading for him even if it were for free wouldn't be prudent

he doesn't have that kind of talent he is just very good

2 eddie jones wasn't really worth the money when the contract was 1st given to him he definitely isn't worth it now (case in point i dont think he is any better than stackhouse and while it can be argued that he is i think we can all agree that the pistons traded him because they felt he wasn't worth the max he would be asking for at the end of the season)

3 eddie jones is not a leader on a young team they players are going to look to the better players for guidance and if lastyear was any indication (while 'Zo was still getting use to his medication) Jones does not have it in him to be THE GUY as their 5-23 start clearly shows

4. he has all the potential in the world to be a media nightmare he hs spurned to bulls before and at the 1st hint of trouble the chi-town press will bring this up and with Jones not being an interveiwers best friend it could get ugly

5. the years of which he was worth the money he were getting have past he is a thin player who gets by on a athletic body and a decent J

his J is not going to keep him productive a la reg miller into his mid30s and his quickness and leaping ability are already beginning to fade

6. the price mentioned is way too high (fizer , JC and Robinson) most of the skills jones brings to the table robinson and crawford have in combo better than jones

robinson is more athletic with a better mid range j

crawford has a better handle and better 3pt shot

jones is a better defender than all three but he is only slightly better than a fully healthy e-rob(any doubter should watch robinson shut down jones in the mia-char series in 2001 max players should not get down in the playoffs , there is no excuse thats what they get paid for )

plus people want to throw in fizer who even the most ardent fizer hater will admit is no throw in

7. basically a team goes as far as as its stars take them ,the final 4 last year the teams were lead by webber pierce shaq and kidd .Rose is not in that category and jones is not the player rose is the bulls will not get to their goals(upper echelon of the league) unless 1 or more of their young projects take them there and until then it makes no sense to trade part of the future for a player who can at best only help to take them halfway


uh... um the end
 

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bulls fans:
dont even dream about that trade!
miamia wants to attract big players... they will never do that if they dont have grant, butler, jones, and best on the team........ we dont wanna be a team people look at like they look at the nuggets or the cavs...
jonmes is our only reliable player without zo
 

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How's 'bout this one?

Zo goes out for the season or possibly his career. Miami files for a injured player exception on Mourning. If I understand the rules correctly, Miami can sign a player at up to 50% of Alonzo's salary provided the exception is granted. (Just read that on ESPN with the Demarr Johnson story)

If I'm a clever GM, I'll bend Rashard Lewis ear to the tune of a one year deal at right around $9 or $10 mil. with the *wink wink* assurance that come the following year, he can re-up with Miami with no problem long-term because Alonzo's $20 mil/season is comming off the books. Miami would still have decent wiggle room with which to sign, not necessarily a full-boat FA, but perhaps a decent center. Can anyone say Olowakandi?

after the summer of 2003...

PG - Who knows?
SG - Jones / Butler
SF - Lewis
PF - Grant
C - Kandi

Would Lewis do something like this? Is it even possible??? Given the prospect of Lewis signing for the 4.5 mil excption in Dallas or a pretty sweet one year deal with Miami who then has the wherewithal to sign Lewis long-term, I would think he should look at it.
 

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I'm wondering how Marcus, Jamal and ERob for EJ is any different from Brad, Ron Artest and Ron Mercer for Jalen?

Addition by subtraction

Nominal comparison of individual production ( in itself in isolation ) is not going to win a team many games when you are trying to cram minutes into 11 or 12 players that should be getting them
 

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Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
How's 'bout this one?


If I'm a clever GM, I'll bend Rashard Lewis ear to the tune of a one year deal at right around $9 or $10 mil. with the *wink wink* assurance that come the following year, he can re-up with Miami with no problem long-term because Alonzo's $20 mil/season is comming off the books.
Just make sure that Rashard uses an invisible pen on that :

Wink Wink

Wink Wink
With invisible ink
To avoid the stink
Cuz Riles loses draft picks n cash quicker than an eye can blink

The commish 'd thow everything at 'em including the kitchen sink
All depends if within Miami's four walls there is a fink
A curse , an vendeta perhaps - unable to escape the jinx
A franchise on the brink
All this about the green , diamonds, n coats of mink
What started off as a casual word on the links
Dang -t'would drive a GM to drink

Loose lips sink ships - the razz is coming- time to bail
Just make sure m' edit mask TBF covered n' the buck passed OK MrMcHale?

WORD!

OUT!

Fat Jerry Publications. copyright. 14th September 2002
 

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Flash

Its a good idea but time would not be on Miami or Rashard's side I would not think for something like that to go down


Unfortunate timing with training camp and season being so close
 

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Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
I'm wondering how Marcus, Jamal and ERob for EJ is any different from Brad, Ron Artest and Ron Mercer for Jalen?

Addition by subtraction

Nominal comparison of individual production ( in itself in isolation ) is not going to win a team many games when you are trying to cram minutes into 11 or 12 players that should be getting them
you cant do this every 6 months

when it was for jalen it fit a need

the young players need a mentor and a leader someone to lead them on the court as well as off it

it wasn't done for immediate wins on a court because those 3 players could have won as many games here as jalen did if not more.

i believe you actually let a teams players get good enough that there can actually be a min. crunch before you trade players away
it seems people are so afraid to let a player sit because he gets limited time

well no player is experiencing that yet and in all honesty there are only 9 payers on the roster that absolutely deseve time in the rotation heading into the season

and seeing how injury prone the bulls have tended to be over the last couple of years i'm not too worried about finding time for players on a team not headed to the playoffs in all likelyhood anyway

and if the #s crunch becomes too much to bear its better to trade mid-season anyway because for one thing our players will have more value(especially robinson & crawford although i'm actually against trading both unless a deal blows my socks off) and for another teams will be more willing to give more for players at that time
 

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Eddie Jones

As someone who has proposed a lot of Eddie Jones trades the past two years, I'm glad HJHJR and FJ have resurrected him in this thread.

I would do HJ's trade. Of course, Riley would have to think that Eddie Robinson will not turn up lame, and also like Fizer.

FJ, I'm not ready to give up on Jamal yet. If people within the Bulls organization are, well, that would say more about his attitude and thought process. I don't know what Cartwright or JK think about the kid. So, if he stays, they still think he has potential, and if he goes, then they have serious doubts. I, for one, would be surprised to see Jamal traded right now.

I can see Marcus, Bagaric, Robinson and Hoiberg in Miami. I would not be surprised if Riley did this, IF he likes Eddie Robinson. I think he certainly will like their contracts better than Jone's.

And if Riley tries to squeeze another year or two out of Eddie Jones, who has that escalating contract, well, then Riley will wind up like the Knicks with an untradeable commodity, or one tradeable for a lot of bloated contracts or lame bodies.

At least with this deal, he gets some decent players to fill out his thin roster.
 

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Re: not to burst bubbles

Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
7. basically a team goes as far as as its stars take them ,the final 4 last year the teams were lead by webber pierce shaq and kidd .Rose is not in that category and jones is not the player rose is the bulls will not get to their goals(upper echelon of the league) unless 1 or more of their young projects take them there and until then it makes no sense to trade part of the future for a player who can at best only help to take them halfway


uh... um the end
Rose is not in that category? I beg to differ. Actually, it's the facts that beg to differ.

In 1999-2000, Rose led the Pacers in scoring (18.2) and added 4.8 reb, 4.0 ast and 1.05 stl. He went on to average 23 ppg in the NBA Finals, so I think he has proven that he can lead a team to the Finals.

And Fizer, ERob, the Mayor and Bags are only a part of the Bulls future coming off the bench. ERob might be a starter long-term, but that's it, and I highly doubt that.

I don't see how anyone could not like this trade. Jones is still one of the best perimeter defenders in the game, he's a 3-time All-Star, and he's only 30.

Last season, he averaged 18.3 pts, 4.7 reb, 3.2 ast, 1.44 stl, AND he shot 39% on 3's- and he played 39 minutes/game, which ranked 14th in the NBA.

And who really cares how much money he makes? It's completely irrelevent. The Bulls aren't going to be under the cap again anyway, and since Reinsdorf has already stated that he doesn't mind paying the Luxury Tax, what difference does it make how much money Jones is paid?
 

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if anyone knows how much havok erob can reak when his game his 100%, then its pat riley
 

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Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!


you cant do this every 6 months
Quite right

When you run out of expendables and your team's short. mid and long term future is assured there is no need to
:cool:
For the record - I do like Jammy and Fizz - its just that I don't see them here as part of our future and with that being the case ( and the thick rod of rationalism that guides me ) I say why put off until tomorrow what you can do today ?
 
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