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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Over the years of watching basketball, I have often heard the terms "aggressive" and "selfish" to describe a player mentality on offense. Most people seems to think that these two terms are drastic in contrast. One is used to positively describe a player mindset, and one is used in a negative way.

I think there is only a fine line separating these two terms. An aggressive offensive player can easily be lebeled as selfish at the same time. The inverse is also true with the player that is perceived as being selfish.

How do you differentiate between these two terms? Is Zach Randolph selfish or is he just an aggressive offensive player? How about Stoudamire?
 

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Very fine line, indeed.

In general, the best differentiating factor is probably whether or not the ball goes in...

I would go a bit further, though, and define the difference to be how the player responds to success or lack thereof. If they make a few shots, grab a few rebounds, get a few steals, or make some great assists and it hungers them for more, then they're assertive. If they keep firing blanks and do nothing extra to break out of the rut, then they're selfish.

Dan
 

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Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
Very fine line, indeed.

In general, the best differentiating factor is probably whether or not the ball goes in...
I agree. The way I see it, if a player is talented enough to back up their aggressive play then they are just aggressive, if not then they are selfish.
 

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yup. to quantify it a little more, for a big man FG% is the key. if you are over 48%, you have to be doing something seriously wrong to be called selfish.

for guards0 it's more a combination of FG% and assist average. any guard averaging higher than 45% and 5 assists is probably safe from that label.
 

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To add a little something...

I think it has a lot to do with how much a player plays within the team concept and structure of the offense. If it is the general consensus that they are the best offensive player on the team and should be taking the most shots, then that's no problem if they do. ..

However, if they're considered by the team and coaches to be the 4th best and they consistently take the 2nd most shots or something like that, then one might start to see the selfish label.

So for me, I guess the "selfish" thing comes about when there is a disparity between how much the player thinks they should be shooting and handling the ball, and how much the coaches and teammates think they should be...
 

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Originally posted by <b>Blazer Ringbearer</b>!
To add a little something...

I think it has a lot to do with how much a player plays within the team concept and structure of the offense. If it is the general consensus that they are the best offensive player on the team and should be taking the most shots, then that's no problem if they do. ..

However, if they're considered by the team and coaches to be the 4th best and they consistently take the 2nd most shots or something like that, then one might start to see the selfish label.

So for me, I guess the "selfish" thing comes about when there is a disparity between how much the player thinks they should be shooting and handling the ball, and how much the coaches and teammates think they should be...
Well put.

Great players like Jordan, Magic, and Bird always wanted the ball with the game on the line. The key point is, they were the *best* and they usually delivered. In the case of Magic and Bird, that sometimes meant scoring themselves, and sometimes it meant finding a team-mate for a good shot. They were equally happy getting the winning bucket or the assist on the winning bucket.

Zach is still learning the 2nd part of that equation. I believe his passing will improve with experience. I doubt Damon will ever get it.
 

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The following players are in the top 20 of fg attempts per 48 minutes.

1. Tracy McGrady (Orlando Magic) 27.25
2. Allen Iverson (Philadelphia 76ers) 27.04
3. Baron Davis (New Orleans Hornets) 25.70
4. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 24.76
5. Jermaine O'Neal (Indiana Pacers) 24.27
6. Vince Carter (Toronto Raptors) 24.14
7. Bobby Jackson (Sacramento Kings) 24.02
8. Larry Hughes (Washington Wizards) 23.73
9. Ronald Murray (Seattle SuperSonics) 23.69
10. Michael Redd (Milwaukee Bucks) 23.62
11. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) 23.49
12. Bonzi Wells (Memphis Grizzlies) 23.16
13. LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers) 22.95
14. Juan Dixon (Washington Wizards) 22.65
15. Jamal Crawford (Chicago Bulls) 22.49
16. Quentin Richardson (Los Angeles Clippers) 22.42
17. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) 22.31
18. Sam Cassell (Minnesota Timberwolves) 22.16
19. Zach Randolph (Portland Trail Blazers) 21.96
20. Carmelo Anthony (Denver Nuggets) 21.92

Any opinions on which of these players is selfish?

Allen Iverson, for me, is themost selfish player in the league.
 

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the more I think about it, it's not just about stats.

I think Yao Ming is selfish in some ways because he just doesn't show the energy to get himself in great low post position consistently. part of that is due to Mobley and Francis, though, who are among my top 10 list of most selfish NBA players.

it's a chicken and egg thing. Yao won't fight for position, because he knows the guards won't deliver him the ball.

the guards won't look for him enough because he's never deep, and the space he creates in the high post is just too tempting.

on our current squad, Derek Anderson has actually surpassed Damon as our most selfish player. he's shooting at an appalling 32%, yet is launching over 11 shots a game.

considering we don't even HAVE a backup point guard, it seems like somebody needs to sit down and explain to Mr Loyalty the concept of passing up difficult shots.
 

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I find it ironic that the Wiz, with several promising young big men, has 2 guards on that list.
 

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Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
Very fine line, indeed.

In general, the best differentiating factor is probably whether or not the ball goes in...
In some sense, that probably should be the differentiating factor. If you can routinely put the ball in the hoop, then you're not being selfish...you're helping the team.

If you can't routinely hit the shots, then you're being selfish...taking shots to satisfy your needs but hurting the team.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Great responses so far...

For me, a selfish player is generally the one who play aggressively, but to the detriment of the team offensive system. Playing aggressively might make him be a more productive player, but his productions most likely comes at the expense of his teammates.

I think Stoudamire would be a perfect example to illustrate this. When he's more aggressive on offense and looking for his shots more, it usually mean Randolph and Wallace have less touches. When this is the case, the team mostly suffer.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Oldmangrouch</b>!
I find it ironic that the Wiz, with several promising young big men, has 2 guards on that list.
I was thinking about mentioning the two Wizards guards as selfish until I realized that I have no idea who SHOULD be taking the shots for them. Kwame Brown hasn't shown much of the talent that led the Wizards to take him with the first pick in the draft. Who else do they have? From that list, I would pick Bobby Jackson as the most seiflsh player, maybe followed by Ronald Murray.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
the more I think about it, it's not just about stats.

I think Yao Ming is selfish in some ways because he just doesn't show the energy to get himself in great low post position consistently.
While I think in some cases this is true, I think confidence or not know how to be more assertive factor in more than selfishness.

In Yao's case, I do think that his team would benefit more if he's more aggressive on offense. His lack of assertiveness on offense, to me, is not about being selfish. I think it has more to do with him not trying to step on Francis and Mobley's egos. Van Gundy is the one that should be fixing this.

on our current squad, Derek Anderson has actually surpassed Damon as our most selfish player. he's shooting at an appalling 32%, yet is launching over 11 shots a game.
I fully agree. Anderson's shot selection has always been questionable. Right now, his shot selection is at its worse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
From the list...

I think Wells, Murray, Richardson, and Dixon are being more aggressive on offense than their teams own good.

Now that Allen is back, Murray's shot attempt has dropped, and most likely will not go back up. Same will probably happen to Dixon now that Stackhouse is back.

That just leave Wells and Richardson. Memphis have too many options on offense for Wells to shoot that much. For the Clippers, Richardson is shoot no more than Brand and Maggette.
 

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I think you have to figure in defense as well. Some guys work their tail off on defense and figure it earns them a shot or two, fair trade to me. I'm tired of seeing players who think defense is optional, that is selfish!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Originally posted by <b>RG</b>!
I think you have to figure in defense as well. Some guys work their tail off on defense and figure it earns them a shot or two, fair trade to me.
You're right. I was just thinking in term of a player mindset on offense, because on offense is usually where we can tell if a player is selfish or not.

I don't agree with the idea of giving a player shots on offense as a reward for their defensive effort. Playing a role on your team is the most important thing. If a player role is to shoot no more than 5 or 6 times a game, he shouldn't get to shoot anymore than that no matter his defensive efforts.
 

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Well playing good defense gets more shots for the team, if the wealth is shared shots go up for everyone. Selfish is when the guy not playing defense takes the majority of the benefits of the defense. (see Damon)
 
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