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Discussion Starter #1
Back when I first came to bbb.net, I was one of the few that wanted to trade VC to get kids to build with Bosh. It was impossible to get the help for Vince and easier IMO to trade VC and surround Bosh with young peers. This happened about a season and a half too late.

Now we are crap. Bosh has been given this team. Rightly or wrongly. A lot of pressure. It's been 2 years in the A. An extension is coming soon. So far I've seen promise not stardom. When VC was a rook there was stardom. By T-mac's 3rd year, there was stardom.

Other than garbage, insignificant minutes, I am yet to see stardom. I have yet to see him dominate a game in the manner that other stars have and can. When does promise of stardom become unfullfilled potential? How long is too long?

I started a thread a while back asking if Chris was a max player. The overwhelming response was yes. To me a player to earn the max has to be extraordinary an the unquestioned rock of the team.

Now I AM NOT saying Chris can't get better, but as flawed as Vince was, especially in the end, there were games where he would essentially win games on his own. Where his talent would lift the team, as bad as it was.

Chris may get to that point. But if I don't see seriously similar talent and leadership from this young man that results in at least a few wins, I will support the idea of trading him before we get on the hook for a Max extension.
 

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hitting the panic button already? some things take time I got faith in bosh he shows flashes of what he can do to trade him would be crazy imo and on top of that to add to the problem toronto has no real threat on the team to keep defenses honest when covering bosh at least you had to be somewhat honest when Vince was on the court
 

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Discussion Starter #3
This is not the panic button, this is a position based on history that I know too well.

It may not come to pass, (and I hope they don't) but if things do not improve from him directly, I am putting my position out there NOW.
 

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I agree with the sentiment. As yet Bosh hasn't shown dominance. He's a very good player, and I like him, but he can't dominate games. I also agree that if he hasn't shown it by the end of the year he'll never have it. I can't think of any dominant player who wasn't able to do it by their third year of starting, and most do it in their first.

However, you also don't want to trade a player just so you don't have to pay him the max. Ask yourself are the Raptors going to be able to spend the money they save by not signing Bosh on a better player? I'm having trouble imagining such a scenario.

I'd be willing to trade Bosh, but only if we get something as good or better back. And no, that doesn't mean only LeBron or Wade, like some are advocating on the other thread. I'd say there are probably a couple dozen players worth trading Bosh for. However I'd be very reluctant to let Babcock handle a Bosh trade. We'd get fleeced again.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ballyhoo said:
I agree with the sentiment. As yet Bosh hasn't shown dominance. He's a very good player, and I like him, but he can't dominate games. I also agree that if he hasn't shown it by the end of the year he'll never have it. I can't think of any dominant player who wasn't able to do it by their third year of starting, and most do it in their first.

However, you also don't want to trade a player just so you don't have to pay him the max. Ask yourself are the Raptors going to be able to spend the money they save by not signing Bosh on a better player? I'm having trouble imagining such a scenario.

I'd be willing to trade Bosh, but only if we get something as good or better back. And no, that doesn't mean only LeBron or Wade, like some are advocating on the other thread. I'd say there are probably a couple dozen players worth trading Bosh for. However I'd be very reluctant to let Babcock handle a Bosh trade. We'd get fleeced again.
No I would look at the possibility of say Bosh + Alvin (~10-12 milion) for a player you want or a combination of players you like and a pick.

At this point and even at the end of the year, someone will still see "potential" as a dominant player.

I would try to capitalise on that value if he does not show something special this year.
 

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Bosh is a power forward. T-Mac and Carter are swing men. It usually takes the big guys longer to adjust and dominate. It took, for example, Jermaine O'neal quite a few years to elevate his game to all star level. Bosh has some troubles passing out of double teams. Once his passing skills improve and the outside shooters on the team hit a fairly high percentage, then Bosh's productivity will soar to a higher level. I think Bosh has star potential based on his play. What might not be achievable is super star potential that T-Mac and Carter have shown.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
GoRaptors said:
Bosh is a power forward. T-Mac and Carter are swing men. It usually takes the big guys longer to adjust and dominate. It took, for example, Jermaine O'neal quite a few years to elevate his game to all star level. Bosh has some troubles passing out of double teams. Once his passing skills improve and the outside shooters on the team hit a fairly high percentage, then Bosh's productivity will soar to a higher level. I think Bosh has star potential based on his play. What might not be achievable is super star potential that T-Mac and Carter have shown.
I thought about your exact example. Some differences. Jermaine saw no NCAA experience and rode the bench for a condsiderable period on what was a good Portland team. It was not until he reached Indy that he got serious minutes. Bosh has had serious minutes from year 1, with a year of very high level NCAA action. His time should be accelerated from JO. Amare was a freak, I won't put him up there like that. He was rebounding out of the gate and scoring by the second year.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
speedythief said:
There is a franchise player who deserves the max out there we could trade him for? Who?
The time is not now, and I'm not fielding calls. What I'm saying is that right now Chris is not a franchise player. Could he be? Maybe.

What I AM saying is that I don't necessarily WANT a franchise player for him. I like the idea of several guys that can play who make 6 to 10 million. Rather than pay the default heir apparent the default amount for such a position, ie the max.
 

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blowuptheraptors said:
Back when I first came to bbb.net, I was one of the few that wanted to trade VC to get kids to build with Bosh. It was impossible to get the help for Vince and easier IMO to trade VC and surround Bosh with young peers. This happened about a season and a half too late.

Now we are crap. Bosh has been given this team. Rightly or wrongly. A lot of pressure. It's been 2 years in the A. An extension is coming soon. So far I've seen promise not stardom. When VC was a rook there was stardom. By T-mac's 3rd year, there was stardom.

Other than garbage, insignificant minutes, I am yet to see stardom. I have yet to see him dominate a game in the manner that other stars have and can. When does promise of stardom become unfullfilled potential? How long is too long?

I started a thread a while back asking if Chris was a max player. The overwhelming response was yes. To me a player to earn the max has to be extraordinary an the unquestioned rock of the team.

Now I AM NOT saying Chris can't get better, but as flawed as Vince was, especially in the end, there were games where he would essentially win games on his own. Where his talent would lift the team, as bad as it was.

Chris may get to that point. But if I don't see seriously similar talent and leadership from this young man that results in at least a few wins, I will support the idea of trading him before we get on the hook for a Max extension.
Bosh is going to get paid max dollars even if he should cease to improve through the end of his rookie deal.

Is Bosh an Amare? No. Is he a KG? No. VC? TMac? No. No.

What he is, however, is a 21 y/o, athletic, skilled, 6'10, future All-Star PF, that has done nothing but increase his ppg, rpg, and apg every season (including this one so far). He is a franchise-type talent and a rare commodity. He was 29th in the league in efficiency (not per 48) last season as a 20 y/o NBA sophomore.

If he was to be traded, I'm not sure what would be wanted in return: draft picks (would have to be at least two solid firsts), another young PF prospect? Looking at the PFs in the league there aren't many I would want in place of Bosh. Taking into account age, contract, talent, upside, etc, these are the only ones I would take for him:

KG
Duncan
Dirk
Amare
Okafor (maybe)
Howard (maybe)
 

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I don't think the max contract is that big a deal.

He's going to get, regardless of yours or anyone elses definition of 'deserving it'. The days of players 'deserving' max contracts are over. You pay to keep your stars, or risk getting your behind shown up in the future.
 

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Patience, man.
First of all, you can't compare Bosh to Vince nor T-Mac, IMO.
Both of them are swing men, they played on a better team than this team (OK, T-Mac had a year with a weak team, but he hadn't shown anything special back then).
VC was the go-to-guy. Bosh isn't exactly the GTG, because players like Jalen Rose take a lot of shots. You can't call a player who shoots 10 FA in more than 40 minutes a GTG.
T-Mac had easier life with Vince around, and afterward he elevated his game.

I truly believe that you'll see stardom from Chris later this season.
His season always looks like a crescendo.
This is his slow start, and even so, he improves his stats a bit.
He has to work on several elements of his game, and he'll become a permanent all-star.
He has nice mid-range shot. However it isn't a deadly mid-range shot.
There is an improvement in his passing skills. He has more assists with less TO. It isn't good enough, but it's something.

Give the kid time, until his rookie contract expires, and then determine if he's max or not.
 

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I think it's clear to a lot of people that Bosh is not going to become a KG/Duncan caliber player. From what I have seen out of him so far, I think he will peak at around 20-22 ppg and just shy of 10 rpg. Is that worth max money? I think so, given how big men nowadays are overpaid. A steady 20/10 player like Bosh is not easy to get in this league. For a team like a Raptors, it is important to keep him anyway they can, espeically even when you pay Bosh max money, the team will still have enough money to sign other players. (After current contracts like Rose come off the books in a couple years). When you look at the top 30 highest paid players in the NBA today, more than half of them aren't worth their salary. As long as Bosh can be durable and have a good attitude towards the team, I would pay give him a max contract in a heart beat. The problem with the Raptors today is not Bosh, it's the team that is surrounding him.
 

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big forwards and centres take longer to develop then players like vince and t mac do, shaq was really good in his first 3 years but wasnt unstoppable like he was latter on in his career.
 
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yeah, i think everyone has brought up good points, big men take longer to develope, he's only 21, VC and T-MAC both, for the most part played on better teams.

and also the original post. I think Bosh is a great 1/2 option on the team, but in order for him to be a great player he needs another legit 1/2 best player on the team. Maybe CV3 can be the third and MoP the fourth, but we really need another 'sorta superstar' to go along with the other 'sorta superstar' we have. look at the Pistons, who is the superstar on that team? no one really, not one player is really that much of a greater option then the other. Rip and Prince, Wallace and Wallace, all these guys are good enough to make their counterparts better.

as a team the Raptors must increase the raw talent on the team (which i think they are).
 

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Rhubarb said:
I don't think the max contract is that big a deal.

He's going to get, regardless of yours or anyone elses definition of 'deserving it'. The days of players 'deserving' max contracts are over. You pay to keep your stars, or risk getting your behind shown up in the future.
Totally agree. I don't think JJ and Michael Redd are max type players, yet they got theirs. Bosh is in that category of "really good" right now IMO.

Yao Ming is also a fantastic player, but for the last 3 games, he hasn't carried them on his back. O'Neal has Artest, Wade has Shaq, even Amare had Marion and Marbury but his breakout season came with the signing of Nash. Bosh doesnt' have anyone around him yet. T-Mac didn't help Orlando in his last season from going 0-9 because there was no talent surrounding him.
 

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If he doesn't show flashes of dominance by the end of the year, I won't be worried.

Yes he would be finishing his third season, but look at the team around him. It's hard to dominate when teams throw double, and triple teams at you. Especially when this is the first time Chris has experienced this, and now, he no longer has Vince Carter, and a great spot up shooter like Donyell who he can pass out to and have confidence in.

He needs someone to take the pressure of him to be able to dominate, IMO. Jalen Rose can't do that. He plays the game in a selfish way. Don't think there is a worse fit beside Chris Bosh than Jalen Rose. Morris Peterson is too streak; can't be relied on as a second option. Other than those two, our players are just too young and inexperienced, or just not good enough.
 

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Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and MJ. Those are really the only guys that deserved MAX money over the last 10 years. You could build a title contender around them pretty easily.

Below that you get all-star level talent. Guys that put up nice stats and maybe even win a playoff round or two but cant really carry a team. These guys also get MAX money even though they are clearly second tier. There are just not enough top tier guys so teams overpay to get something 'close' to that. Centers are especially rare so they get big bucks for not even being all-star caliber.

Bosh is somewhere in this second tier. Above the Tyson Chandler and Dalembert level but below the KG/JO level. As a 20/10 player,or very close, Bosh is a legit all-star who will get his max money.

Last year Bosh showed he could be the main man over the last 40 games. But defenses were not being designed to stop him. This year they are, and he is struggling. I would give him this year to figure it out. If he doesn't look any better in April and isn't ready to sign an extension then you feel out his market value.

We won't get a better player for the money as a FA. But the right trade could take us further. And you can only even consider this if Villy starts to play very well.

Or we just focus on getting a number one scoring option on the wing to take that pressure off Bosh most nights. Either thru the draft, trade, or as a FA.

Graham could become that Rip Hamilton type of go-to scorer. Not a 25ppg guy but a guy that gives you a consistant and efficient 18-22 and is hard to stop down the stretch. Graham has the inside/outside package and if he learns to use screens like Rip would not need to be a great ballhandler. But most likely it would have to be another player.
 

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shookem and lucky777s have great points. If Bosh doesn't turn out to be the next KG or Duncan, we need to put a star next to him who is close to his caliber. The team wouldn't have a bona fide superstar, but 2 All-Stars and a few good roleplayers would be good enough to contend, I think. We could do that through draft, trade, or free agency. Personally, I like the idea of getting rid of one of our extra wing players (Rose, Peterson) in a package with 1 or 2 of the Williamses and the Denver pick for a young swingman with star potential (Prince, J.Johnson, Igoudala, Pietrus, Outlaw, J.Jones, J.Howard, etc.). I like the trade idea because building entirely through the draft might delay the comeback process and we don't want to be coming off another 30-35 win season with Bosh as an unrestricted FA. I don't want to get a second star through free agency because I'd prefer to use the summer of 07 to sign Magloire or another decent center. If everything worked out, in the end we'd have:

PG: J.Calderon/R.Ukic/M.James
SG: J.Graham/Trade/M.Peterson*/M.James
SF: Trade/J.Graham/M.Peterson*/C.Villanueva
PF: C.Bosh/C.Villanueva/M.Bonner/P.Sow
CC: J.Magloire**/R.Araujo/P.Sow/C.Bosh

*if we keep him
**or whoever we get in summer '07
 
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